Experimenting with independents - an inevitable watch collecting journey?

[taxico]

Because I can hardly afford a PP, AP, or VC

By the way I am no collector of watches. I know what you are getting at, but there is a difference between watch collecting and watch appreciation. Just like arts, collecting is associated with ownership (and the finance to it) but appreciation does not necessarily require so.

In my opinion, exclusivity of an item is more related to collecting than appreciation. Hence I can probably understand why a collector wants something exclusive.

that was a genuine question that will, i hope, lead to a few questions answered.

besides the vast network of service centres, why do you like seikos and omegas and rolex?

for example: i love vintage omegas but i do not believe in the "slimline" version of george daniel's escapement that omega had originally adopted. as such, it is extremely difficult for me to accept buying/keeping any watch that features omega's old co-axial design (i've tried and failed). i also abhor their beat rate of choice...

why do i like the parachrom blue over the older hairspring? because the heart of every watch is now entirely rolex made. this does not seem like much to most people - as my friend says, the old spring works just fine. to me, it is important that as many of the parts in a watch were produced internally as possible when a premium is being charged. i can therefore appreciate the efforts undertaken by rolex to integrate everything. the blue spring + microstella balance wheel perfects rolex's "heart".

these little reasons (and probably a fair few more) shape my beliefs (which is not etched in stone) when it comes to watch collecting/buying/wearing. they allow me to understand what a mass market brand can provide, and what they cannot. the reasons why i buy rolex/omega/seiko makes its way into how i question a watchmaker's work/ethos. i do not buy an unusual piece only because it is exclusive - because i know i would be happy to buy it if that piece was made by rolex.

but this is pretty much impossible because rolex does not make watches for the sake of watchmaking, but for the sale of making sales. i, therefore, need to look elsewhere.

i should stress that independents does not = full customization (at least not in many cases). at the end of the day, we are wearing watches that someone else has created (whether with or without our input). if you know what the watchmaker's philosophy are when it comes to watchmaking, and his vision for his brand, you are able to know if his products are the ones for you or not because you know what he wants to achieve.

if you are purely driven by quick saleability, minimal loss and resale value, the world of independents is extremely difficult if not impossible to sell to you. but this is unlikely to be true for most people that buy watches as a hobby. i therefore invite you to share what you like in the watches that you have, or like in the watch companies/pieces that you appreciate.

[taxico]

the below does not apply to any belt-driven or quartz/hybrid-type watches that goes beyond the capability of CW21/traditional watchmakers:

i think the perspective of an independent brand shutting shop and rendering their watches useless because no one will touch them is quite narrow-minded.

most independents do not design their watches to be so proprietary that no one else except him/her can touch them. they design watches with a legacy and longevity in mind. any competent watchmaker MUST and should be able to make the parts required by examining the watch in detail.

but the sad fact is, such watchmakers are exceedingly rare in our country. even the ones that have been trained to do so are unwilling to undertake the work as the amount of work vs payoff is not to their liking.

else where, watchmakers would prefer to be craftsmen first and businessmen second.

jlc/ap/vc/patek/etc does not keep a vast inventory of parts for ALL watches they have made... they may have technical documents for some, but many old pocket and wrist watches sent back to them require parts to be hand made after a period of analysis. accordingly, the bill reflects that.

to overcome the issue of independents shuttering: we need to remain open to that fact that SOMEWHERE out there exists more than a few people that CAN and WILL fix your broken watch made by an unknown person... for sure the bill cannot be equal or more than what the established brands charge for a comparable job scope.

[Oceanklassik]

That will depend if one is looking at it from an artist/arts appreciation point-of-view, or from an economic sense. Like what you said,

"there is a difference between watch collecting and watch appreciation. Just like arts, collecting is associated with ownership (and the finance to it) but appreciation does not necessarily require so"

If one deems a wristwatch as an art piece and has a well-to-do background, then probably he/she will acquire it. It's also like how some people want to, can afford to, and will buy a vintage vehicle, knowing that the maintenance and servicing costs will be extremely high. One must be wealthy enough.

[pegasi]

I wonder what will happen when the grandmasters who said to be making nearly all the parts of his watches by himself no longer around? Will the watches be more sought after? Or the opposite because it is difficult to have it serviced and repaired (if it is at all possible)?

[pegasi]

may i ask why do you collect the brands/pieces you have/had?

Because I can hardly afford a PP, AP, or VC

By the way I am no collector of watches. I know what you are getting at, but there is a difference between watch collecting and watch appreciation. Just like arts, collecting is associated with ownership (and the finance to it) but appreciation does not necessarily require so.

In my opinion, exclusivity of an item is more related to collecting than appreciation. Hence I can probably understand why a collector wants something exclusive.

[wolfeyes1974]

another important point raised. that was one of my fear when i first wanted to get an independent brand watch. however, after almost a decade, the company is still around. so i am not sure if i should jump in now. besides the possibility of the brand not continuing, the servicing cost is another concern.

Yes this will always be a fear at the back of our minds...

[triton]

another important point raised. that was one of my fear when i first wanted to get an independent brand watch. however, after almost a decade, the company is still around. so i am not sure if i should jump in now. besides the possibility of the brand not continuing, the servicing cost is another concern.

Servicing is one big headache and unfortunately the odds of independent manufacturers closing down within my lifetime is a lot higher than that of an established brand. If that happens, who/where am I going to approach to service/source parts for my timepiece?

[triton]

you have touch on a very important issue for many watch collectors - servicing costs. it is also part of the reason why i am still holding back on some brands.

Personally... for the sake of the hobby, for the sake of future service costs worries... i shall stick to lower maintenance cost grades movements for the moment ... until i'm ready for the next big leap...

[mew]

It's not inevitable but some would explore independents along their journey.
I have only tried more affordable independents like Nomos but they just aren't for me.

Servicing is one big headache and unfortunately the odds of independent manufacturers closing down within my lifetime is a lot higher than that of an established brand. If that happens, who/where am I going to approach to service/source parts for my timepiece?

I had a 1970s Omega fully restored by Bienne a few years back and they still have parts for it. Thus, I'll stick to my "common" Rolex & Omega, brands that are known to store parts at least 20 years.

Besides, with their annual production numbers, I'm sure I would be able to source parts elsewhere even if they no longer have them.

[Ed.YEO]

...For some of the members here who amassed a large/impressive collection over the years, do you feel that this is an inevitable part of the journey or do you still prefer to take a safer bet and buy more mainstream brands? Do you wish to experiment independent brands and start afresh (beginning with entry level models and eventually "upgrade" along the way)?...

I don't have an "impressive" collection to talk about.
However, what i see today is "history... is made to sell". The good old reputation on after sales service and watch serviceability comes with a cost that cannot compare to our fathers time or our school time before. Today's brand, is about how low their watches can be made, and yield high returns. Service attitudes differs on different environment, in different countries.
We're hearing or seeing more and more scary stories on after sales support/service either from big groups, or from prestige brands. It's either we can conclude whether these companies' objectives are just to sell, or give in more effort in retaining customers trusts/support to the brands...

Personally... for the sake of the hobby, for the sake of future service costs worries... i shall stick to lower maintenance cost grades movements for the moment ... until i'm ready for the next big leap...

[taxico]

...I will continue to enjoy my Rolex and Omega and Seiko and the likes…

may i ask why do you collect the brands/pieces you have/had?

[pegasi]

Ah, I guess you have misinterpreted what I have written. What I meant was I respected these collectors for being different, but I did not mention that my quest for going into Indies in to gain attention and respect. Yes, I want to be different from the others, and it ends here. I want to enjoy something special and exclusive that people does not have; I want to be unique. That is why I want to go Indies (but my wallet says otherwise).

Your worries and disappointed are unwarranted in this case. Hahaha

I am glad I misinterpreted.

My apologies.

[Tricolore]

Of course I am aware that there is a global watch community. I believe I started visiting/
lurking around the international forums/blogs etc earlier than you did (and I still do). The reason I am not actively sharing in those forums is that I prefer to do that in a community I actually live in (I use this same word "live" in my earlier response), where I have the possibility to meet and befriend some of the like-minded watch lovers. I never feel a need to impress people in the other part of the world.

From what I read, you aspire to own those independent brands mainly in order to be different, to be respected (in the cyber world of horology?) and feel important, which really disappoint me. A young man like you should strive to be different in a way which you can contribute, and gain respect through what you do, not what you wear. Not saying those reasons for owning watches are wrong (in case I get flamed, just disappointed to hear them from you...

Ah, I guess you have misinterpreted what I have written. What I meant was I respected these collectors for being different, but I did not mention that my quest for going into Indies in to gain attention and respect. Yes, I want to be different from the others, and it ends here. I want to enjoy something special and exclusive that people does not have; I want to be unique. That is why I want to go Indies (but my wallet says otherwise).

Your worries and disappointed are unwarranted in this case. Hahaha

[pegasi]

I agree with you, Pegasi bro, on certain points that you have pointed out. As someone who likes watches (and JLC, especially), I wish I could get my hands on either the JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire/ JLC Reverso Gyrotourbillion 2/ A. Lange and Sohne Datograph. They are simply amazing pieces of work.

But then again, some collectors want to be special and different. Hence, they go for brands like Dufour, Kari, Greubel Forsey, MB&F, DeBethune or Vianney Halter. They want something different. Yes, a JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire is not something that is accessible to many, but to some collectors, these brands do not dare to be different; they still to the "safer side" and are unwilling to go controversial for their designs. Which is something that the independents can do. Would would dare to come out with somethign that is as outrageous and bold as MB&F's HM, or Vianney's Deep Space Tourbillion?

Relationship between the watchmakers and clients (like what you have mentioned) is probably another reason too. As their products are considered "niche" in this industry, it allows clients and watchmakers to have a closer relationship, which makes the former feels "important". This allows the clients to enjoy personalised watches, latest information, and perhaps better ownership experiences that they may be unable to enjoy from the "bigger" watch companies.

With regards to respect, of course the JLC that you have mentioned would garner plenty of respect from collectors here. But the kind of respect that I am talking about here is different. Rather, I respect these collectors for being bold and different, for venturing into something unorthodox that we would not dare to try. And nope, the watch community is bigger than you think. Try venturing out into international forums (e.g. WatchuSeek, PuristS). I enjoy viewing these forums too; they gave me a greater perspective and insights on watch collecting, which can be very interesting and radical at times

Of course I am aware that there is a global watch community. I believe I started visiting/
lurking around the international forums/blogs etc earlier than you did (and I still do). The reason I am not actively sharing in those forums is that I prefer to do that in a community I actually live in (I use this same word "live" in my earlier response), where I have the possibility to meet and befriend some of the like-minded watch lovers. I never feel a need to impress people in the other part of the world.

From what I read, you aspire to own those independent brands mainly in order to be different, to be respected (in the cyber world of horology?) and feel important, which really disappoint me. A young man like you should strive to be different in a way which you can contribute, and gain respect through what you do, not what you wear. Not saying those reasons for owning watches are wrong (in case I get flamed, just disappointed to hear them from you...

[Tricolore]

Real independent brands = members of AHCI? That's an interesting way of defining independent brands but I don't think that's exactly what James meant although some of the brands he mentioned are AHCI members. And I have difficulty understanding why only AHCI members are considered as "real" independent brands by you. While most of those independent brands are small non-industrialized watchmakers producing very good watches in small scale, there is also brand under the AHCI like FP Journe that has grown relatively big with boutique in a number of cities, so they are not all of the same type.

Of the 3 names that you mentioned, the Voutilainen and Dufour are of a different and higher league than the PSM, but even the former 2 are not comparable to the like of PP in terms of make and quality. Among the attributes you opined, exclusivity on a brand level is probably the only thing that you cannot get in the mainstrain high-end manufacturers. For the price of a Voutilainen and Dufour, I could get a JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire in which all parts are hand finished.

Speaking of being respected in the horological world...I am not sure which horological world you belong to, but in the small watch community I live in, I am pretty certain this Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire from my beloved brand will gain me immense respect and many praises. The hard-to-pronounce brand name and model name, like those of many independent brands, could yet play a part

I agree with you, Pegasi bro, on certain points that you have pointed out. As someone who likes watches (and JLC, especially), I wish I could get my hands on either the JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire/ JLC Reverso Gyrotourbillion 2/ A. Lange and Sohne Datograph. They are simply amazing pieces of work.

But then again, some collectors want to be special and different. Hence, they go for brands like Dufour, Kari, Greubel Forsey, MB&F, DeBethune or Vianney Halter. They want something different. Yes, a JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire is not something that is accessible to many, but to some collectors, these brands do not dare to be different; they still to the "safer side" and are unwilling to go controversial for their designs. Which is something that the independents can do. Would would dare to come out with somethign that is as outrageous and bold as MB&F's HM, or Vianney's Deep Space Tourbillion?

Relationship between the watchmakers and clients (like what you have mentioned) is probably another reason too. As their products are considered "niche" in this industry, it allows clients and watchmakers to have a closer relationship, which makes the former feels "important". This allows the clients to enjoy personalised watches, latest information, and perhaps better ownership experiences that they may be unable to enjoy from the "bigger" watch companies.

With regards to respect, of course the JLC that you have mentioned would garner plenty of respect from collectors here. But the kind of respect that I am talking about here is different. Rather, I respect these collectors for being bold and different, for venturing into something unorthodox that we would not dare to try. And nope, the watch community is bigger than you think. Try venturing out into international forums (e.g. WatchuSeek, PuristS). I enjoy viewing these forums too; they gave me a greater perspective and insights on watch collecting, which can be very interesting and radical at times