Experimenting with independents - an inevitable watch collecting journey?

[Chris777]

my 2 cents worth.

I always buy a watch I enjoy but affordability and resale is always in my mind. You never know when the day will come when circumtances requires to raise some money for housing, renovation, sickness etc... so to me, able to offload and not lose that much money is key.

I started off with Rolex explorer and along the way, I have collected and sold ; Rolex16570, 1655, 1680, 1675, 16710, Lange Sohne, GO perpetual calendar, Omega speedmaster..... and today, I have only 1675, AP RO,Patek 5065, Omega Speedmaster.

I realised that after a full circle, simplicity of the watch is still the best. Im enjoying the Patek 5065 alot and the value seem to hold alot better. Im gunning for the 5711, another simple but yet outstanding piece.

cheers!

[wolfeyes1974]

Thanks for clarifying your definition, James.

While I might sound like I was questioning the wisdom of spending on those brands, I fully understand and respect that watch collecting is a thing of irrational passion and that the collectors of all stuffs are intrigued by exclusivity/personalization and want to be unique.

My "challenge" to you guys to convince me that this route to non-mainstream independents make sense, is a measured one with two purposes behind. First, a selfish one to enable myself to understand what I have missed; second, to get people (me inclusive) digging into beyond a few web posts and explore what really are in it and see if it is for them.

Being a Gemini, the sensibility and rationality in me are constantly fighting against each other. At the end of the day, the depth of my pocket has the final say as far as watch purchases are concerned. And yes, $10k+ for a watch is expensive for me although I do own watches that cost that much.

Finally, thanks for starting this discussion, which lead me to visit, albeit on paper and very briefly, THAT part of the journey I had heard of but would otherwise not go to

Cheers.

actually your "challenge" is the question I was trying to get an answer....I'm not sure if this is a natural progression if one has owned and tested many brands...what comes next? : )

[pegasi]

Thanks for clarifying your definition, James.

While I might sound like I was questioning the wisdom of spending on those brands, I fully understand and respect that watch collecting is a thing of irrational passion and that the collectors of all stuffs are intrigued by exclusivity/personalization and want to be unique.

My "challenge" to you guys to convince me that this route to non-mainstream independents make sense, is a measured one with two purposes behind. First, a selfish one to enable myself to understand what I have missed; second, to get people (me inclusive) digging into beyond a few web posts and explore what really are in it and see if it is for them.

Being a Gemini, the sensibility and rationality in me are constantly fighting against each other. At the end of the day, the depth of my pocket has the final say as far as watch purchases are concerned. And yes, $10k+ for a watch is expensive for me although I do own watches that cost that much.

Finally, thanks for starting this discussion, which lead me to visit, albeit on paper and very briefly, THAT part of the journey I had heard of but would otherwise not go to

Cheers.

[taxico]

...Why then do we pay more for bespoke shoes/shirts than mainstream ones if we can't convinced ourselves of their craftsmanship and quality?

i must caution again that "bespoke" (anything) doesn't always = to quality and a high level of craftsmanship. sure, it SHOULD and in some cases it always is.

at the back of my mind i know that this is always about being able to afford $X for something that is more unique/customized. sure, most watchmakers will be able to rectify any genuine problems that happens to their watches but i worry you will be disappointed when you realize the limitations or oversight of your chosen watchmaker's atelier .

the limited availability is a double-edged sword. the internet can paint a very flattering picture of certain watches that when on my wrist bears little resemblance to what i had seen and read off the LCD screen. after i've wired money, paid import taxes/flown to pick up the watch, this can be a bitter pill to swallow...

[wolfeyes1974]

I think it is important to first establish the subject being discussed in this thread. To me, this is not a discussion about independent brands, but rather, expensive, non-mainstream, independent brands. I highlight the word “non-mainstream” because I think that is the key word here (followed by “expensive”) based on what I read so far.

The word independent, in this context, refers to the business setup and ownership of a brand. There are many so called mainstream brands across a wide price band that are independent, from AP & PP, to Breitling & Ulysse Nardin, and to Ball & Oris, as I have mentioned in one of my early thread.

So you guys are actually talking about non-mainstream independent brands that occupy a niche of the watch market. Did all those independent businesses mentioned in TS post set out to be non-mainstream brands? Or is that a consequence of their product/manufacturing/sales/marketing strategy? While some of those brands might indeed have a vision to be a cult brand projecting a certain culture that appeals to the rich and famous, from business point of view it is hard to comprehend that a luxury consumer brand does not aim to have a bigger piece of the pie if that is attainable.

Now, what is with these non-mainstream and expensive independent brands? I read the words “soul” and “philosophy”. While I agree that some mainstream brands make very commercial watches, I am not convinced that many of those non-mainstream watches have “more souls” than those mainstream brands that are high up in the prestige and heritage ladder (no I am not referring to Rolex). After all, the soul comes from the human working behind the brands. As for “philosophy”, it is so abstract and very often a marketing stuff – some BUY into it, some don’t. As for the personal touch (speaking to the founder etc) – there are fonder/owner of some micro brands meeting up with consumers and providing very personalized services as well, but I guess getting close and personal with the boss of a bigger brand means a bigger deal for most people?

I wish I could contribute more to this thread but that’s all I have for now. I am obviously quite far from that point of the journey some of you guys are at or have been to, and hence have not much insight of those very exclusive and elusive brands to offer. Until someone can help me better understand in more concrete terms the beauty and strength in craftsmanship or what-have-you of the watches produced by those non-mainstream independent brands, all those talks of soul and philosophy, and implication that a certain group of commercial products are less commercial than the others, just sound very hollow to me.

Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my Rolex and Omega and Seiko and the likes…

Have a nice Sunday, folks.

For the sake of facilitating a discussion.

First of all, yes I'm referring to non-mainstream brands and they're not necessarily expensive. Dornbluth watches, from my understanding, cost $10K+ (which is similar to a Rolex which is a brand you're comfortable with). Peter Speake Marin Serpent Calendar costs $12K+. Of course, there're expensive ones like MB&F and Vianney. What I've stated in my thread are brands that I've researched and know. Like I said..i'm still at the infancy stage and there're definitely more brands that I'm not familiar with.

To simplify my question, I'm actually asking "what's next after you've collected so many watches and tired of the mainstream brands in the market"? Would you be adventurous and try out Dornbluth?

I'm sure many of us are well aware of PP/JLC/AP/ALS as independent makers but with extensive distribution network. I'm not referring to them. If you're looking at more specifics in terms of definition:

1. Lack of readily available service centres and distributorship
2. History less than 25 years?
3. Possibility of interacting with owner/watchmaker
4. Some level of customization available
5. Inhouse movement
6. You don't find it on everyone's wrists

I'm not saying all brands are not commercial but you can obviously differentiate those who are very commercial vs those who are not. With regards to "soul"...I don't see Mr Breguet/Omega/Tag walking around now shaking his customer's hands? However, it's different for some of the brands. Take Dornbluth for example...he updates you the progress at every stage (takes photos and email you).

I think the term "soul" is valid and not hollow. For example: if Brand A and Brand B offers ETA 2824 then what's your purchase decision based on other than reputation, aesthetics, functions and its attributes? Wouldn't that personal touch, customization and knowing that the owner, his team and his family are working on your watch be as important?

Why then do we pay more for bespoke shoes/shirts than mainstream ones if we can't convinced ourselves of their craftsmanship and quality?

Cheers

James

[pegasi]

Something I read from the Revolution magazine that should be interesting to share here...

During a plenary session arranged by the Hour Glass in Singapore at the Paragon last year, the four invited Watchmaking Grandmasters Philippe Dufour, Kari Voutilenen, Laurent Ferrier and Roger Smith, were asked the following question by a member of the audience:

If you were asked to recommend a watch costing below USD10,000, other than your own, to someone who wants to start a collection, what would it be?

Their choice?

Philippe Dufour: Nomos
Kari Voutilenen: Parmigiani
Laurent Ferrier: Vintage Rolex Daytona
Roger Smith: Rolex

Two for non-mainstream independent brands and two for the most mainstream Rolex. You see, even the Grandmasters can have such diverse opinions

[pegasi]

i had a long reply typed out. and i went for a shower to think about whether or not i should publish it. i remembered then, something someone much wiser than me told me before, and deleted everything i had typed.

while i certainly cannot enlighten someone else on my viewpoints, and i definitely feel that your reply requires addressing by someone more apt than me in explaining... the intangibles.

what i WILL say is:

everyone that has paid more than $99 (? $50? put an arbitrary number here that suits) for a wrist watch, and/or has bought more than 1 such watch, is certainly emotionally invested.

how that relates to your thoughts and interpretation of, say, soul and philosophy when it comes to rolex, omega, seiko, or any other brand, should speak, on a scale at least, of what many hobbyists defer to (and probably often magnified to the nth degree) when it comes to buying/collecting wrist watches.

because, as often is the case, "what i like is probably not what you will like..."

I get your point. Thanks

[Shanghaied]

And I would get that JLC mentioned by bro Pegasi, any time...

[taxico]

...Until someone can help me better understand in more concrete terms the beauty and strength in craftsmanship or what-have-you of the watches produced by those non-mainstream independent brands, all those talks of soul and philosophy, and implication that a certain group of commercial products are less commercial than the others, just sound very hollow to me...

i had a long reply typed out. and i went for a shower to think about whether or not i should publish it. i remembered then, something someone much wiser than me told me before, and deleted everything i had typed.

while i certainly cannot enlighten someone else on my viewpoints, and i definitely feel that your reply requires addressing by someone more apt than me in explaining... the intangibles.

what i WILL say is:

everyone that has paid more than $99 (? $50? put an arbitrary number here that suits) for a wrist watch, and/or has bought more than 1 such watch, is certainly emotionally invested.

how that relates to your thoughts and interpretation of, say, soul and philosophy when it comes to rolex, omega, seiko, or any other brand, should speak, on a scale at least, of what many hobbyists defer to (and probably often magnified to the nth degree) when it comes to buying/collecting wrist watches.

because, as often is the case, "what i like is probably not what you will like..."

[pegasi]

From the entire thread, I deduce that wolfeyes may not be referring to those non-mainstream brands, but rather, real independents under AHCI (ACADÉMIE HORLOGÈRE DES CRÉATEURS INDÉPENDANTS), such as Kari V., PSM, or even P. Dufour.

I guess the appeal of the independent watches is its exclusivity, and perhaps attention to detail. More of the former, I guess, since they have lesser production numbers. Take Dufour for example: less than 100 watches are made per year. And his works are amazing; I mean, just looking at the photos and you could tell that it is a very well made watch. Of course, a Grand Seiko and Lange can fit this criteria; but then again, there are more reasons as to why people buy independents. To be respected in the horological world? Unorthodox designs? Personalisation? Or perhaps, like you mentioned, interaction? Or even it is because it is perceived to be the pinnacle of watch collecting. There are many attributes, but there must be something about the Independents that made people go crazy about it.

As someone who is crazy about watches, I do hope to go into collecting independents. Mainly because I want to be different and exclusive, and also to "up my level" of collecting (I mean, we want to go collect better watches as we progress, right?)

This is just my two cents....

Real independent brands = members of AHCI? That's an interesting way of defining independent brands but I don't think that's exactly what James meant although some of the brands he mentioned are AHCI members. And I have difficulty understanding why only AHCI members are considered as "real" independent brands by you. While most of those independent brands are small non-industrialized watchmakers producing very good watches in small scale, there is also brand under the AHCI like FP Journe that has grown relatively big with boutique in a number of cities, so they are not all of the same type.

Of the 3 names that you mentioned, the Voutilainen and Dufour are of a different and higher league than the PSM, but even the former 2 are not comparable to the like of PP in terms of make and quality. Among the attributes you opined, exclusivity on a brand level is probably the only thing that you cannot get in the mainstrain high-end manufacturers. For the price of a Voutilainen and Dufour, I could get a JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire in which all parts are hand finished.

Speaking of being respected in the horological world...I am not sure which horological world you belong to, but in the small watch community I live in, I am pretty certain this Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire from my beloved brand will gain me immense respect and many praises. The hard-to-pronounce brand name and model name, like those of many independent brands, could yet play a part

[Tricolore]

I think it is important to first establish the subject being discussed in this thread. To me, this is not a discussion about independent brands, but rather, expensive, non-mainstream, independent brands. I highlight the word “non-mainstream” because I think that is the key word here (followed by “expensive”) based on what I read so far.

The word independent, in this context, refers to the business setup and ownership of a brand. There are many so called mainstream brands across a wide price band that are independent, from AP & PP, to Breitling & Ulysse Nardin, and to Ball & Oris, as I have mentioned in one of my early thread.

So you guys are actually talking about non-mainstream independent brands that occupy a niche of the watch market. Did all those independent businesses mentioned in TS post set out to be non-mainstream brands? Or is that a consequence of their product/manufacturing/sales/marketing strategy? While some of those brands might indeed have a vision to be a cult brand projecting a certain culture that appeals to the rich and famous, from business point of view it is hard to comprehend that a luxury consumer brand does not aim to have a bigger piece of the pie if that is attainable.

Now, what is with these non-mainstream and expensive independent brands? I read the words “soul” and “philosophy”. While I agree that some mainstream brands make very commercial watches, I am not convinced that many of those non-mainstream watches have “more souls” than those mainstream brands that are high up in the prestige and heritage ladder (no I am not referring to Rolex). After all, the soul comes from the human working behind the brands. As for “philosophy”, it is so abstract and very often a marketing stuff – some BUY into it, some don’t. As for the personal touch (speaking to the founder etc) – there are fonder/owner of some micro brands meeting up with consumers and providing very personalized services as well, but I guess getting close and personal with the boss of a bigger brand means a bigger deal for most people?

I wish I could contribute more to this thread but that’s all I have for now. I am obviously quite far from that point of the journey some of you guys are at or have been to, and hence have not much insight of those very exclusive and elusive brands to offer. Until someone can help me better understand in more concrete terms the beauty and strength in craftsmanship or what-have-you of the watches produced by those non-mainstream independent brands, all those talks of soul and philosophy, and implication that a certain group of commercial products are less commercial than the others, just sound very hollow to me.

Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my Rolex and Omega and Seiko and the likes…

Have a nice Sunday, folks.

From the entire thread, I deduce that wolfeyes may not be referring to those non-mainstream brands, but rather, real independents under AHCI (ACADÉMIE HORLOGÈRE DES CRÉATEURS INDÉPENDANTS), such as Kari V., PSM, or even P. Dufour.

I guess the appeal of the independent watches is its exclusivity, and perhaps attention to detail. More of the former, I guess, since they have lesser production numbers. Take Dufour for example: less than 100 watches are made per year. And his works are amazing; I mean, just looking at the photos and you could tell that it is a very well made watch. Of course, a Grand Seiko and Lange can fit this criteria; but then again, there are more reasons as to why people buy independents. To be respected in the horological world? Unorthodox designs? Personalisation? Or perhaps, like you mentioned, interaction? Or even it is because it is perceived to be the pinnacle of watch collecting. There are many attributes, but there must be something about the Independents that made people go crazy about it.

As someone who is crazy about watches, I do hope to go into collecting independents. Mainly because I want to be different and exclusive, and also to "up my level" of collecting (I mean, we want to go collect better watches as we progress, right?)

This is just my two cents....

[pegasi]

I think it is important to first establish the subject being discussed in this thread. To me, this is not a discussion about independent brands, but rather, expensive, non-mainstream, independent brands. I highlight the word “non-mainstream” because I think that is the key word here (followed by “expensive”) based on what I read so far.

The word independent, in this context, refers to the business setup and ownership of a brand. There are many so called mainstream brands across a wide price band that are independent, from AP & PP, to Breitling & Ulysse Nardin, and to Ball & Oris, as I have mentioned in one of my early thread.

So you guys are actually talking about non-mainstream independent brands that occupy a niche of the watch market. Did all those independent businesses mentioned in TS post set out to be non-mainstream brands? Or is that a consequence of their product/manufacturing/sales/marketing strategy? While some of those brands might indeed have a vision to be a cult brand projecting a certain culture that appeals to the rich and famous, from business point of view it is hard to comprehend that a luxury consumer brand does not aim to have a bigger piece of the pie if that is attainable.

Now, what is with these non-mainstream and expensive independent brands? I read the words “soul” and “philosophy”. While I agree that some mainstream brands make very commercial watches, I am not convinced that many of those non-mainstream watches have “more souls” than those mainstream brands that are high up in the prestige and heritage ladder (no I am not referring to Rolex). After all, the soul comes from the human working behind the brands. As for “philosophy”, it is so abstract and very often a marketing stuff – some BUY into it, some don’t. As for the personal touch (speaking to the founder etc) – there are fonder/owner of some micro brands meeting up with consumers and providing very personalized services as well, but I guess getting close and personal with the boss of a bigger brand means a bigger deal for most people?

I wish I could contribute more to this thread but that’s all I have for now. I am obviously quite far from that point of the journey some of you guys are at or have been to, and hence have not much insight of those very exclusive and elusive brands to offer. Until someone can help me better understand in more concrete terms the beauty and strength in craftsmanship or what-have-you of the watches produced by those non-mainstream independent brands, all those talks of soul and philosophy, and implication that a certain group of commercial products are less commercial than the others, just sound very hollow to me.

Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my Rolex and Omega and Seiko and the likes…

Have a nice Sunday, folks.

[aisheng]

thanks for the wonderful read guys!

[triton]

i will continue where we stop @ what's app. a quick simple recap of what discussion between wolfeyes1974 and myself.

wolfeyes1974 is someone who is likely to rotate his collection of watches, as such he is prepared to take a hit if he were to let go of the piece he is looking at.

wolfeyes1974 and myself share a common concern is that in an event if the company cannot support the brand, the watch may end up as an expensive paper weight. however it can move in opposite direction because you cannot get the brand anymore in future.

with independent brands, the information available maybe skewed or limited because of one reason or another.

like another forum member has pointed out, find out as much as one can with the brand. know the company philosophy or vision. possibly talk to sales person(s) whom you can trust to offer their perspectives. there was a period i wanted to get a particular brand, however after talking to the sales person, i started to ponder. started to do more research.

know what you are really buying. the heartbeat of the watch is the movement. find out more if one can on the movement. what is it that really attract you to the watch. is it the design? is it the movement? is it the overall package?

once you are ready to commit, take a step back. wait for another 1 month or so and go back and see the watch again. does it still appeal to you when one first saw it in the first place? if it does, then go for it.

i have always wanted to get a particular independent brand watch for a long time. however i have yet to pull the trigger. maybe one day just one day i will. maybe.....

good luck wolfeyes1974. let's catch up one of these days for coffee.

[taxico]

I'm finding the appeal of the mass brands diminishing because they're readily available and more commercial in nature. It seems like the watches lack the watchmaker's "soul". Mass brands are trying to make up/recreate the "soul" by marketing the history, founders, legacy, linking to sports events and celebrity endorsements.

I find myself now standing at the edge of what i call "the infancy stage of independent watches appreciation". The more I research about them, the more they appeal to me. Watchmakers like Habring, Peter Speake Marin, Dornbluth & Sohn, Zeitwinkel, Nomos, FP Journe, De Bethune, MB&F and etc. Juxtaposition of fears, uncertainty, uneasiness and excitement. I know this will lead to an abyss when I cross the line.

For some of the members here who amassed a large/impressive collection over the years, do you feel that this is an inevitable part of the journey or do you still prefer to take a safer bet and buy more mainstream brands? Do you wish to experiment independent brands and start afresh (beginning with entry level models and eventually "upgrade" along the way)?

not inevitable, but a common "cycle" (for lack of a better word) for some, usually avid, collectors.

i can only recommend that you do A LOT of reading and touching of other people's watches (including visiting the makers' workshops where possible) before committing to buy. short of having supremely deep pockets for hoarding select pieces, losses are almost certain when you sell on your watch (if you do).

independent horology is a wonderful wonderful wonderful world but it can be sometimes (this is not uncommon) disappointing if you go in with unrealistic expectations or are unable to live with the quirks that come with watches produced in (sometimes extremely) small numbers.

read, read, ask, read, ask ask, read before buying. there are also many brands out there that do not fall into the usual AHCI or independent category... beyond the commonly known names... (and some of the brands you cited are not treated as real independents by certain groups of collectors)

eg, since last year, i've been particularly intrigued by a french brand Pequignet... big date, annual calendar, moonphase, inhouse movement... for ~13k eur (supremely affordable). but until i know and understand and accept their philosophy, i will not bite. information is also quite scarce until this year rolled by and it got a little bit better. that's my philosophy anyway...

it's certainly exclusive (in all ways) so it's not for everybody. but i love it.