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[Ryuden]

Ryuden

...rolex can always engage you and me as mystery shopper...

This I can...

Just let me buy one at retail.

[triton]

IIRC the letter only meant for SG AD.

i have never heard and experience of any other country's AD selling their watches above RRP even in Russia

This I'm a little curious. Is it only Singapore ADs that got the letter? Aren't the ADs in other countries doing the same? Or only our local ADs sell (certain) ROLEX watches at premium prices?

[Oceanklassik]

yes. enforcement maybe tough, it is how far they want to go. rolex can always engage you and me as mystery shopper to see if AD sells above premium.

if one customer walks in with 30k in cash and say i want to buy a daytona C. i am sure one of the many AD's branches will sell. it is just how to invoice it.

This I'm a little curious. Is it only Singapore ADs that got the letter? Aren't the ADs in other countries doing the same? Or only our local ADs sell (certain) ROLEX watches at premium prices?

[Oceanklassik]

Agree with the exclusivity.

What I meant about the receipt was not to show it to buyer. Rather, it's about how the owner/seller will eventually price the watch to sell. But I guess you are right, it doesn't really matter how much the watch was originally bought at. It's more about how much the market value for a pre-owned piece of that model will be at that point in time.

So I guess now is time for me to go to a few ADs to put my name in the queue for a Daytona C. and wait till half a decade or so to land one at list price... Good luck, Me!

[triton]

yes. enforcement maybe tough, it is how far they want to go. rolex can always engage you and me as mystery shopper to see if AD sells above premium.

if one customer walks in with 30k in cash and say i want to buy a daytona C. i am sure one of the many AD's branches will sell. it is just how to invoice it.

Been following this thread for awhile...good pointers guys. This is what platform like this is about. Been missing good discussions like this for a while now.

Whatever the issue is, the main challange is enforcement. Without any dedicated watchdog, there's plenty of way to bend and more often than not, break the rules. Its a business and no AD would want to lose out doing the right thing. If there more money to be made, why not?

[triton]

8000 in cash? then how is the AD going to record this amount in their books?

it is not the AD's concern on what price the buyer wants to sell in future. besides, currently, how many times a potential buyer ask the seller to show the original receipt.

"i believe that there are means to circumvent this situation. it is just how creative the AD wants to be. i believe that walk-in customer can also buy the premium models if certain conditions are met. i can think of several conditions off hand already."

I read someone posted one of them, i.e. the customer MUST buy a certain amount of watches from the AD for the AD to then sell the popular model at retail price to the said customer. But for a walk-in customer who just wants to buy one or two watches, this would not work?

Thinking out loud, the AD can still sell the watch at premium price to the customer. But he/she would have to state it on paper that it was sold at retail price. The additional (premium) will then be paid in cash "under-table" to the AD. This is based on mutual trust between the AD and customer, but then, wouldn't it be unfair to the customer?

Say for example, a customer pays $24,660 for the Daytona C. (retails at $16,660). AD prints out an invoice of $16,660 where the customer pays with his credit card. The additional $8,000, the customer pays in cash to the AD, unrecorded. One day the customer decides to sell the watch. How is he/she going to prove that the watch was bought at premium, since the receipt only states $16,660?

[Ryuden]

...One day the customer decides to sell the watch. How is he/she going to prove that the watch was bought at premium, since the receipt only states $16,660?...

It matters not the receipt i think cause how many were sold above the retail and no one bothers about at what it was purchased for. Those gmts 16710 which was purchased at like 5-6k with receipt, and now going way above what it was sold for back then.

As long as Rolex maintain the perceived 'exclusivity' of the Daytona, there are bound to be someone who is willing to pay for it at a premium no matter what the receipt says.

And at this newage where information is a click away, its like a common understanding that certain pieces are trading at a ridiculous premium. If one cant land on one and want one, then pay the premium. If you dont want to pay the premium, then wait for the ridiculous long "waiting list".

[Ryuden]

Ryuden

...The root of the problem stems from ROLEX themselves for goodness sake. If they couldn't meet the world demand or intentionally control production of certain models, they shouldn't penalize their ADs like that...

Doubt Rolex cant met the demand and yes, Rolex is intentionally controlling the production. The DaytonaC is nothing but a facelift model, same case, same bracelet and same movement. Just different dial and bezel.

And i like the fact that they are limiting production and controlling the output cause it will just make the model more desirable...even though its a perceived rarity/value.

Wouldnt want Rolex to churn out the Daytona uncontrollably and destroy the long standing value they have created on how coverted the Daytona is. If its that easy to land up with one, whats so special about it then.

[Ryuden]

Been following this thread for awhile...good pointers guys. This is what platform like this is about. Been missing good discussions like this for a while now.

Whatever the issue is, the main challange is enforcement. Without any dedicated watchdog, there's plenty of way to bend and more often than not, break the rules. Its a business and no AD would want to lose out doing the right thing. If there more money to be made, why not?

[Oceanklassik]

"i believe that there are means to circumvent this situation. it is just how creative the AD wants to be. i believe that walk-in customer can also buy the premium models if certain conditions are met. i can think of several conditions off hand already."

I read someone posted one of them, i.e. the customer MUST buy a certain amount of watches from the AD for the AD to then sell the popular model at retail price to the said customer. But for a walk-in customer who just wants to buy one or two watches, this would not work?

Thinking out loud, the AD can still sell the watch at premium price to the customer. But he/she would have to state it on paper that it was sold at retail price. The additional (premium) will then be paid in cash "under-table" to the AD. This is based on mutual trust between the AD and customer, but then, wouldn't it be unfair to the customer?

Say for example, a customer pays $24,660 for the Daytona C. (retails at $16,660). AD prints out an invoice of $16,660 where the customer pays with his credit card. The additional $8,000, the customer pays in cash to the AD, unrecorded. One day the customer decides to sell the watch. How is he/she going to prove that the watch was bought at premium, since the receipt only states $16,660?

[triton]

i understand and agree with you that it is unethical to impose a curb on AD. however, since the issue could be raised by other AD in say european countries that singapore is selling above premium, hence the curb. in european countries, i think the moment any AD sell items above the RRP, the consumers will be up in arms to raise their concern and a lawsuit can be taken against the AD. so it may be easier to force pressure on the brand manufacturer.

i believe that there are means to circumvent this situation. it is just how creative the AD wants to be. i believe that walk-in customer can also buy the premium models if certain conditions are met. i can think of several conditions off hand already.

What I'm trying to say is, ROLEX should not have imposed curb on their ADs on premium-selling totally. The root of the problem stems from ROLEX themselves for goodness sake. If they couldn't meet the world demand or intentionally control production of certain models, they shouldn't penalize their ADs like that.

[Oceanklassik]

for consumers who does not have existing relations with either AD or gray dealer, then they have the option to put down their name down and hope to secure the watch. though it is tough for new walk in customers, there is not much of a choice since rolex has issued this letter to address certain concerns.

then again, what is a reasonable premium? 3k abover premium? 8k above premium?

if you want to get the new daytona C, let me know. let me see if i can help you.

That is the common practice, i.e. leave a name and contact. Most of the time, especially for popular watch models, one is unlikely to hear from the ADs after leaving his/her contact. Likely because, the ADs would choose to sell the watch(es) to their regular/preferred buyers. Reasonable premium, in my opinion, should vary according to how popular the model is, and to be capped at not more than the highest discount the ADs would give for that brand.

For example, say ROLEX. If the ADs can give a max discount of 15% for some of their regular watch models, the "max 15%" should also apply on the premium the ADs slap on the popular models. So, take the more sought after "Batman" and Daytona C. models as reference. The Batman retails at $12,010. If there's a premium on it, then it should be capped at 15% of the retail price, i.e. 12010+15%(1802)=$13,812. Not more, can be less if demand is not extremely high. Make sense? Same goes for the Daytona C. It is listed at $16,660 now, but selling way above! So applying the 15% cap premium, the max (premium) one has to pay would be $2,500 (based on 15% of 16660).

What I'm trying to say is, ROLEX should not have imposed curb on their ADs on premium-selling totally. The root of the problem stems from ROLEX themselves for goodness sake. If they couldn't meet the world demand or intentionally control production of certain models, they shouldn't penalize their ADs like that.

[triton]

for consumers who does not have existing relations with either AD or gray dealer, then they have the option to put down their name down and hope to secure the watch. though it is tough for new walk in customers, there is not much of a choice since rolex has issued this letter to address certain concerns.

then again, what is a reasonable premium? 3k abover premium? 8k above premium?

if you want to get the new daytona C, let me know. let me see if i can help you.

Well explained, yes I understand. Sometimes, it is not just the ADs' frustrations, it is also the consumers' (of not getting the watch(es)). But at least, if one pays a 'reasonable' premium, one could still get the watch. Now, getting the watch of your choice is becoming a 'miracle'. I hope to land myself a new Daytona C. at its list price

[Oceanklassik]

Well explained, yes I understand. Sometimes, it is not just the ADs' frustrations, it is also the consumers' (of not getting the watch(es)). But at least, if one pays a 'reasonable' premium, one could still get the watch. Now, getting the watch of your choice is becoming a 'miracle'. I hope to land myself a new Daytona C. at its list price

[triton]

the reason why it has come to this is because many years back, there was loophole to exploit. the manufacturer knew it, but chose to turn a blind eye to it. the black hole just got bigger and bigger over the years. as i do not know how the manufacturer operates, i cannot comment on their way of operation. back about 10 years ago, i was in zermatt in swizterland. there is a bucherer there up in the mountain resort. i am not sure how many swiss will go there to buy rolex watches, yet they have almost all sports models of different material on display and they have discount on sports models. comparing the same time in singapore, the hottest model then was the kermit. it was almost never on display and price was about 3-4k above the list in singapore.

it is not just the watch industry. the industry that i am in also, the black hole just got bigger and bigger and then the principal now wants to impose restriction on the way we operate. so it is the authorized dealers/distributors who suffer. they are caught in between.

the question as to who gets to buy it, the chances is almost zero for walk-in customer now. this is because customers of authorized dealers will get priority first and the authorized dealers will want to give the customers priority first. i have mentioned many times before, buy from AD if one intends to buy watches in the long run, as repeat customers of authorized dealers, one will have benefits in times like this. gray dealers are not always able to get customers the watches they want, hence when the piece you want that your gray dealer can't get you, you have no choice but to go to AD for assistance. even if gray dealers can get the model you want, they also have their preferred customers. hence their preferred customers will get priority again.

Yes I understand this. For pointers no.1 and no.3, aren't they the cause of the manufacturer's fault? When the manufacturer controls its production for certain models, this is what happens - out-of-stock and consumers offering higher prices. When this gets out of control, the manufacturer now slaps the ADs with a letter, telling them not to sell their watches at premium prices?! Don't you think this is contradicting

So now that the ADs are not allowed to sell higher than its retail price, and they have a long queue for a particular watch model, then how? Say for example the new DaytonaC. The retail price is $16,660. The ADs were selling them at $25,000-$26,000 several months/weeks ago. Now how? Can the ADs still sell it at $25,000 now, under-table? If not, and they are forced to sell at retail price only, then who will get to buy it? Imagine you have a long queue of say 100 buyers waiting...