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  • Oceanklassik
    Tx for helping to complete the article

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  • RoyalOak

    On Dec 8, 1998, after a 19-day trial, the judge found Jonaris guilty and sentenced him to hang.

    He said: “In my opinion, like Hamlet, the accused was not ‘mad’ but had a ‘method in his madness’ which showed that the killing of the deceased was pre-meditated and his ‘madness’ counterfeit.”

    Delivering his 90-minute judgment to a packed courtroom, he said that Jonaris was normal. He was able to work hard, mingle with friends and fall in love with Miss Ngammoo.

    “This was not a symptom at all of a depressed man close to the day or on the day of the offence,” he said.

    He noted that Jonaris’ financial problems began soon after he met the prostitute in a Geylang brothel late last year.

    As a prop assistant, he sometimes earned about $2,000 in a month but he would spend $4,000 a month when he visited his girlfriend four times a week.

    While he lived in the house of his mother and step-father, he had boasted that he was rich and lived in a bungalow with a swimming pool. To keep up appearances, Jonaris was desperate for money and this drove him to commit the robbery, said the judge.

    He added that when Madam Poh regained consciousness and tried to crawl away, he hit her till part of her skull broke into pieces. To ensure that she would not live to report him to the police, he slashed her wrists with a paper cutter so that she would also bleed to death.

    Such “quick action and thinking process”, the judge said, showed that Jonaris was in control of himself at the time.

    As he was led out of the courtroom, Madam Poh’s husband shouted: “You deserve it!”

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  • Oceanklassik
    ROLEX "kills"!

    The Rolex murder of '98

    Article lifted from today's Sunday Times, August 13, 2017

    Rolex murder article.jpg

    Jonaris Badlishah (Jonaris) wanted to give his girlfriend a Rolex. He did not have the money, so he killed to get the watch.

    Jonaris came up with the perfect gift for his girlfriend on her 31st birthday - a $7,500 gold and diamond-studded Rolex watch. When he gave it to the Thai prostitute he was in love with, she remarked that it looked old. What she did not realise at the time was that earlier in the day, the watch had been on the wrist of 42-year-old make-up artist Sally Poh Bee Eng, a mother of two grown-up children.

    In the early hours of April 20, 1998, Jonaris had repeatedly bashed her head with a hammer for the sole purpose of taking the watch.


    Known as Joe to his colleagues, 23-year-old Jonaris was a freelance assistant cameraman and prop assistant. Jonaris' Singaporean mother Elizabeth Seet had divorced his Malaysian father when he was still young. She returned to Singapore when Jonaris was about two years old, and later remarried. The family lived in a Begonia Drive semi-detached house in the expensive Seletar Hills estate. But even then, Jonaris was often in debt and needed to borrow money.

    He met Madam Poh during a filming project about two days before the killing, and noticed her wearing a Rolex watch. "It caught my attention," he said. He thought that it would make "a wonderful present" for his girlfriend Saifon Ngammoo. "I knew that I could not afford to buy such an expensive watch for her. The next thing that came to my mind was to rob Sally Poh of her watch."


    On April 19, he called her, identified himself as "Nigel" - a name that would later haunt him - and told her that her services were needed for a photoshoot. He promised her $1,000, more than double her usual fee. He asked her to be at the Marina South bus stop, opposite the Superbowl Golf and Country Club, at about 6.30am.

    She drove her car there the next morning and waited near the bus stop as asked. Jonaris approached her and told her that "Nigel" and the rest of the crew would be arriving shortly. Madam Poh parked her car and waited at the bus stop with him.

    Jonaris took out a hammer, struck the woman on the head and dragged her to the bushes behind the bus stop, more than 10m away. Madam Poh regained consciousness and tried to stand up. Jonaris then used the hammer to hit her more than 10 times on the back of her head until she blacked out again. He cut the victim's wrist before leaving with her watch.

    According to the forensic expert, Professor Chao Tzee Cheng, the left side of her skull had extensive fractures. The longest crack on her head measured about 13cm long. Even if she had received medical help at the scene, doctors would not have been able to revive her, he said.

    Later that day, Jonaris bought a bouquet of red roses, a cake and a bottle of whiskey and took them to a brothel in Lorong 18 in Geylang. He and his girlfriend celebrated her birthday with a few other girls there.

    He gave Ms Ngammoo the watch. She noticed that it was not new. "I asked him about it but he became angry," she testified during the trial. "I said I was only joking with him and I thanked him."


    It did not take long for police to find a suspect. Madam Poh's husband, Mr Lee Boon Siang, a 47-year-old teacher, had overheard his wife speaking on the telephone the day before the murder. He told police he heard her use a name which sounded like "Lai Joe" - when it should have been Nigel.

    In a strange twist of fate, Jonaris had earned himself the nickname of "Liar Joe" among his friends because of his boastful nature. He would tell them he was dating an airline executive who earned $10,000 a month and lived in a condo, when the truth was that his girlfriend earned her keep by entertaining as many as 20 men a day.

    He would claim that a used silver Dupont lighter she gave him cost $2,000, when it was less than $700. He also borrowed money and never returned it when he promised he would. Even during his trial, Jonaris kept up appearances, wearing a black tailored jacket, gold cufflinks and shiny black shoes. On April 23, police arrested "Liar Joe" at his home.


    His defence was that he was mentally ill at the time he killed Madam Poh. He claimed he was high on cannabis, suffering from depression and obsessed with the Rolex watch. He also claimed that he was abused as a child by his mother and stepfather and that growing up was "a living hell".

    Jonaris told the court the couple used to force him to kneel for hours and clipped clothes pegs on his ears, fingers, lips and tongue. He would be made to chew raw chilli and stand in front of a mirror for hours. He got so used to being caned that "my mother switched to using a belt".

    Madam Seet had two boys with her ex-husband and two children with Mr Robert Seah. Jonaris said the couple treated their own children well, but that he and his younger brother were "like outsiders". He also claimed that his mother told him to say he was her nephew and not her son in public.

    Madam Seet admitted on the stand that she used to punish her son severely from when he was about three years old until he was 14 or 15. She claimed that the mother of her second husband did not like her sons from her previous marriage, and "brainwashed" him into telling others that Jonaris and his brother were Madam Seet's nephews. She also claimed that Jonaris had bouts of headaches after he fell into a drain when he was about eight years old.

    Judicial Commissioner Amarjeet Singh asked her: "You consider him fit enough to be punished?"

    She replied: "Yes, your honour."

    Jonaris also claimed that around the time of the killing, his mother was constantly pestering him to return a sum of $2,000 that he had borrowed. That made him even more depressed. Ms Ngammoo, whom he first met in October 1997 when paying for her services, was different from other women, he said. He fell in love with her because she "understood" him. He said he and "Ling" - his pet name for her - not had a troubled past.

    The divorcee, who had a three-year-old child in Thailand, had told him about her hard life back home and how she had to resort to prostitution. Even when she loaned him $7,000 to solve his money problems, she did not pressure him into returning it. She even gave him money to pay her pimp so he could be with her. Jonaris claimed he wanted to earn more money so that he could take care of them.


    He said Ms Ngammoo had told him about a Rolex watch which had been given to her by her ex-husband, and which she had had to pawn in 1995 to help a friend. "She missed her watch as it meant a lot to her."

    Since then, Jonaris said, thoughts and images of a Rolex watch kept appearing to him. That "stupid" watch even appeared in his dream. He revealed that a few weeks before the killing, he had trailed another woman, intending to take her Rolex. But he did not go through with it as he did not have the courage, he said.

    When he saw Madam Poh's watch, he felt that he had to have it. "Even if she had a five-carat diamond ring on her finger or $10,000 in her wallet, I would not touch them. I don't understand why." He said he was confused and could not decide whether to rob Madam Poh that day. "I heard a voice telling me that if I did not do it, I would face the same problem the next day."

    It was then that he took out his hammer and swung it at her head. He could not control himself, he said. It was "like watching a movie with ear plugs on" - he could see her mouth moving, as if she were talking, but he heard nothing. As he walked away from the scene after taking her watch, he said he felt a kind of "happiness and relief" that he had never experienced.

    "The colour of the water, the sky, the bird, was so new. I felt so free, like a renaissance, like a new beginning. Everything seemed so clean. It looked like a beautiful day."

    He went home to sleep. When he woke up later that day, he thought he had had a nightmare, he said. "But when I saw the watch in my drawer, I knew that it was not a dream and that it really happened."
    Last edited by Oceanklassik; 13-08-17, 12:54 PM.

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  • triton
    bespoke singapore watch maker. read it here

    "customers can choose dial and hands and inscriptions for their watches"

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  • triton
    click here to find out which rolex that is under $6000 is a punch above their weight.

    excerpts -

    "if the yellow gold rolex day date is the representative of the rolex luxury model and the stainless steel submariner is the representative of the tool watch, then which model is the rolex of rolex"

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  • triton
    click here to read why Patek won't rush into China market.

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  • triton
    click here to read on georges kern immediate resignation who was the head of watchmaking, marketing and digital/

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  • Oceanklassik
    How SMART do you want to be?

    Montblanc out to conquer the Summit of smartwatches

    Inspired by the 1858 Collection, it is a classic design with a modern technological upgrade

    Montblanc, the German luxury brand of pens, jewellery and watches, has released its first smartwatch, the Summit.

    Powered by Android Wear 2.0, the Summit is inspired by Montblanc's 1858 Collection analogue timepieces. In fact, you can hardly tell the difference between the Summit and the 1858 version if you place them side by side. The Summit has a classic design given a modern technological upgrade.

    The Summit has different versions, one with a silver stainless-steel watch case, a black stainless-steel case, or a silver stainless-steel case with black bezel model, and a more premium titanium model. Each model comes with a charging cradle that sports the iconic Montblanc emblem.

    There are also eight different straps, from calfskin leather ($150) to alligator ($375), to complement the four models.

    I have reviewed the model with a silver stainless-steel watch case and a red Nato strap (which cost a total of $1,400). The Nato strap ($165) might look like a fabric strap, but it is actually made of rubber. This makes it great for workouts and general rugged use. Each Summit strap comes with quick-release spring bars for easy installation and removal, so you can use a different one each day to suit your mood.

    The Summit is an exquisitely crafted timepiece with its "premium-ness" very evident the moment you strap it onto your wrist. Its 46mm-wide stainless-steel circular watch case feels as smooth as silk. A beautifully crafted crown with the Montblanc emblem is sited on its right. Its classic and timeless design means it will not look out of place even when you are attending a state dinner. But its watch case is really quite large and easily takes over your entire wrist. Yet, despite the large watch case, it is rather thin at only 12.5mm thick.

    When I wore the Summit, it felt lightweight and really comfortable. Its slight rear bulge, due to the heart-rate monitor, did not cause any discomfort. The watch's 1.39-inch (400 x 400 pixels) Amoled touchscreen circular display has a slightly curved sapphire glass surface. This is the first smartwatch to have a curved glass surface, according to Montblanc. The display looks really sharp, with intricate details evident. Instagram notifications show pictures in their full glory, for instance.

    Official Montblanc watch faces take after their analogue cousins and make the watch look like a timepiece more than a smartwatch. Your friends will be fooled into thinking you are wearing an analogue watch. Furthermore, these watch faces have an always-on function. They will show a black-and-white watch face when idle.

    However, it is a shame that the crown is not rotatable and serves only as the home button. With the new circular user interface (UI) of Android Wear 2.0, a rotatable crown would have been perfect to navigate the new UI. In addition, there is no built-in GPS. Considering that the Summit has a large case, it would have been easy to include a GPS module. So when you go for outdoor runs or walks, it uses your smartphone's GPS to calculate distance.

    Using the Google Fit app on the Summit - paired to my Samsung Galaxy Note 5 - for my usual 5km runs, I found the distance tracked to be only slightly longer - around 200m at most - than my calibrated Apple Watch Nike+. But, for daily steps tracking, the Summit registered up to 11 per cent less than the steps tracked on the Apple Watch Nike+. However, the Summit's heartrate-monitor readings differed only by two to three beats per minute, compared with the Apple Watch Nike+.

    The watch has no Near Field Communications (NFC). So, this means you cannot use it for Android Pay, which requires an Android Wear 2.0 smartwatch with NFC to work. The Summit's water resistance is rated at only IP68, meaning you can wash your hands with it but not swim or shower with it.

    Battery life is average for a smartwatch. When paired with my Note 5 with notifications turned on, I found that it was left with around 50 per cent battery power by the time I went to bed. You might want to charge it every night.

    Tech Specs
    Price: $1,340-$1,610
    Connectivity: Bluetooth, Wi-Fi
    Water Resistance: IP68
    Weight: 105g (silver stainless-steel model with rubber Nato strap)

    Features: 3/5
    Design: 5/5
    Performance: 4/5
    Battery Life: 3/5
    Value for Money: 4/5
    Overall: 4/5

    (article by Trevor Tan from the Straits Times, July 5, 2017)

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  • Oceanklassik
    Still thinking if you should get a chronograph watch?

    From the Straits Times, Life! on Thursday, June 29, 2017

    A watch that saved the Apollo crew

    Astronauts used the chronograph to time move that guided troubled spacecraft back to Earth

    On April 13, 1970, two days after the launch of the Apollo 13 lunar exploration mission, astronauts James Lovell, John Swigert and Fred Haise were alarmed by a big bang which rocked their spacecraft. The oxygen tank had exploded, prompting Swigert to radio ground control with that now immortal phrase: "Houston, we have a problem."

    The craft was crippled. What was supposed to be the third attempt to land on the Moon was no longer possible. There were other resulting technical failures, which made returning to Earth, 322,000km away, a perilous exercise.

    Luckily, Swigert's Omega Speedmaster - the only watch approved by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (Nasa) for manned space flights - saved the day. The crew used it to time a 14-second manoeuvre to put the craft on a safe trajectory back to Earth. It worked. The Apollo crew landed safely in the South Pacific Ocean on April 17.

    Even before that, however, the Speedmaster - rolled out by Omega in 1957 - had already made headlines. It had been on every piloted Nasa mission since 1965. Both Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin wore Speedmasters when they became the first men to land on the Moon in the 1969 Apollo 11 space mission. Not surprisingly, the watch has achieved cult status in the world of chronographs.

    Omega is celebrating the 60th anniversary of the Speedmaster with an exhibition which opens today and runs till July 9 at The Shoppes at Marina Bay Sands. Chronographs are watches with stopwatch capabilities. They have counters and mechanisms for measuring elapsed time, anywhere from 30 minutes to three hours.

    Developed for King Louis XVIII of France to time racehorses in the early 1800s, the chronograph became a trailblazer in watchmaking in the early 20th century. It gained further traction when watchmakers began incorporating a rotating bezel tachymeter, which calculates speed over a specified distance, in the 1960s. It also became an indispensable tool for aviators, race-car drivers, sportsmen, soldiers and divers. Its popularity prompted watchmakers to beaver away at patenting an automatic version.

    Breitling, Tag Heuer and Hamilton worked with movement expert Dubois Depraz in the late 1960s to come up with what is now known as the Calibre 11 movement. Not to be outdone, Zenith came up with its El Primero movement, while Seiko produced the 6139 Auto Chrono.

    Naysayers predicted the death of the chronograph when Seiko unveiled the world's first quartz watch in 1969, but the chronograph has more than stood its ground. After all, the Speedmaster saved the lives of the Apollo 13 crew when no computer could. Once a feature in only high-end models, the chronograph is now ubiquitous.

    Omega chief executive Raynald Aeschlimann says it is not difficult to understand its appeal. "It represents a unique echelon of watchmaking that embraces beauty, complexity, functionality and history. These are all powerful factors for collectors. When you have a combination of all those things, it makes a watch more than a watch."

    Indeed, many people use their chronographs for a wide variety of functions, from timing their bakes in the oven to reminding them of their appointments. But an equal number either do not use the feature or know how to use it.

    The main appeal for personal trainer Mohamed Fazlon, 42, who owns three Rolex Daytonas - a hugely popular chronograph inspired by race-car drivers and racing enthusiasts - is the design aesthetics. "They are really sporty. But I don't use the timer; the less I mess around with the mechanism, the better," he says with a laugh.

    Mr Aeschlimann says it is all about the look. "A chronograph has symmetry and balance. It makes a watch stand out and gives it an added edge of style. There's also an appreciation for craftsmanship. There's mechanical complexity in a chronograph and, even if you don't use it, you can still admire the original purpose and historical significance."

    Over the decades, many chronographs have become instant classics. Many models now cost a fortune, but watch companies have been issuing variations and updates as well as new releases. Here are some:

    Omega Speedmaster Racing
    Unveiled at Baselworld earlier this year, this Speedmaster harks back to a design from 1968 with a minute-track on the dial. Measuring 44.25mm in diameter, it also boasts features such as beveled arrow-head indexes filled with SuperLumiNova and expanded sub-dials.

    There are models crafted from stainless steel, 18k Sedna gold and ceramic. The domed sapphire crystal has also been refashioned to make it thinner. Some models come with a sporty leather strap, with perforated holes revealing rubber in striking orange. Prices range from $11,850 for the steel-on-leather model to $34,100 for the gold-on-leather model.

    Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Offshore Chronograph
    The first Royal Oak was designed in 1972. This model is from a new collection targets at the young: a handsome 42mm piece with its stainless steel case, famous octagonal bezel, midnight blue counters and a black "Mega Tapisserie" dial with standout Arabic numerals. It comes with a handstitched large square scale alligator strap and has a power reserve of 50 hours. It retails at $36,400.

    Zenith El Primero Chronomaster Heritage 146
    This updated release pays homage to 1960s Zenith chronographs, with baton hour markers and a tachymeter scale on the edge of the dial. There are, however, new touches, including leaf-shaped hands and the El Primero calibre 4069 inside. At 38mm, it is slightly larger than the vintage originals. Available with blue or brown dials at $10,500.

    Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 18 Automatic Chronograph
    Yet another nod to heritage, this is an updated version of the Carrera design, which is more than 50 years old. Instead of the Tag Heuer logo, the dial boasts a retro Heuer logo reminiscent of early Carrera models. The design is back-to-basics simple, with a Panda (black and silver/white) dial and 39mm case. It has a perforated strap, with the clasp bearing an engraved Heuer logo. It retails at $7,600.

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  • triton
    how much will you pay to own a paul newman's rolex daytona

    click here to read about the article to see how much one will pay for paul newman's daytona

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  • Oceanklassik
    Why you should always do due diligence...

    HK duo jailed for selling fake luxury watches

    They duped four shops here into paying them $18,900 for the six watches

    Two Hong Kongers brought in imitation watches that looked so real, they even fooled several watch shops.

    Delivery driver Cheung Siu Wa, 50, and his 33-year-old godson, Chow Chun Tung, eventually duped four shops into paying them $18,900 for six fake luxury watches.

    Yesterday, the pair were each given 14 months' jail after they admitted to two of four counts of abetment by conspiracy to cheat. Deputy Public Prosecutor Jeslyn Chionh said Cheung and Chow had Chopard and Cartier watches in Japan and Hong Kong at a significantly lower price as they were high-grade imitation watches.

    They arrived here on Feb 15 and sourced out watch shops where they could sell their pieces as genuine, and for the best price. They created a WhatsApp chat group with a third unknown person and shared information about the price each of them was offered and models the shops wanted. After deciding where they would get the best deals, Cheung and Chow split up and went to a shop in People's Park Complex and Lucky Plaza, and two at The Bencoolen between Feb 15 and 16.

    On Feb 16, Chow went to Brightime Watch Shop in Bencoolen Street and said he wanted to sell his watches as he had gambled away all his money and needed some to gamble again. In reality, the duo had not been to any casinos in Singapore during the trip.

    Chow presented one Cartier Ballom Bleu watch with an accompanying warranty booklet, and one Chopard Imperiale watch to the owner, who accepted them and paid him a total of $5,400 in cash.

    The same day, Cheung went to Horological Restoration Centre at Lucky Plaza and said he wanted to sell a Cartier Santos watch. When asked for the watch certificate, Cheung left before returning with it. He sold the imitation Cartier for $4,100 in cash.

    The other two cheating offences involving Watch Time at People's Park Complex and YG Watches at The Bencoolen were taken into consideration. Two victims later reported to the police that they had been sold fake watches and Cheung and Chow were arrested.

    District Judge Mathew Joseph agreed with the prosecution that the offences were pre-meditated, involved a significant sum of money and there were aggravating factors.

    "It is in the public interest that the court imposes a sentence that is not just a deterrent, but also sends a strong signal to potential offenders that Singapore is not a safe haven for them to come and commit their offences with impunity," he said. The maximum punishment for cheating is 10 years' jail and a fine per charge.

    Article from the Straits Times, June 22, 2017 (Wed)

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  • Oceanklassik
    Now you know why you aren't getting the discount you ask for...

    Tourist surge boosts April's non-auto retail sales by 4.9%

    Singapore - Retail sales expanded in April from the same period last year as discretionary spending increased amid a surge in visitor arrivals in the first quarter. Data from the Department of Statistics yesterday showed that excluding vehicles, retail sales rose 4.9 per cent year-on-year. On a month-on-month and seasonally adjusted basis, non-auto retail sales rose 4.4 per cent.

    Sales of watches and jewellery saw the biggest advancement, climbing 14.3 per cent from the same period last year. Department store takings also improved by 7.6 per cent, while receipts at petrol service stations went up 13 per cent. Similarly, retails sales of medical goods and toiletries, clothes and footwear, recreational goods, and computer and telecommunications equipment rose between 6.6 and 2.8 per cent over the same period.

    Mr Francis Tan, an economist at UOB, expressed "surprise" at the robust retail sales data, as consumer spending in the first quarter remains muted amid weak labour market conditions. "Consumption has been down for two consecutive quarters, and consumer sentiment is still weak overall," he said. Redundancies and rising unemployment have dampened consumer spending.

    Singapore's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate edged up to 2.3 per cent in the first quarter of 2017 from 2.2 per cent in the fourth quarter of 2016, preliminary estimates showed. It was the highest jobless rate since the December quarter of 2009. "Increased demand could be coming from overseas, with strong tourist arrivals driving sales," said Mr Tan.

    There was a 4 per cent growth in visitor arrivals in the first three months of the year - with 1.478 million visitors in March this year, up from 1.4 million in the same period last year. Visitors from China increased by 13.7 per cent in the first quarter, overtaking Indonesia as the fastest growing market for tourist arrivals in Singapore.

    The increase in discretionary spending for items like watches and jewellery in particular is significant. Adjusting for price increases, retails sales for this segment went up by 19 per cent in real terms, said Mr Tan. Moreover, department store sales are the strongest since January 2016, where takings rose by 12 per cent year-on-year, he added.

    Ms Selena Ling, head of treasury research and strategy, OCBC Bank said: "With many brick-and-mortar retailers increasingly embracing the e-commerce route, I expect that credit card transactions and volumes for the e-channel will continue to grow."

    Higher petrol prices at the pump are due to the increase in global oil prices since last year, when prices slumped to a low in February 2016. In contrast, retail sales of motor vehicles slumped 6.4 per cent, and spending at mini-marts and convenience stores fell by 5.7 per cent. Retail sales of food and beverage were also down 3 per cent overall compared with the same period last year, with restaurant takings down by 10.5 per cent.

    Including vehicles, the overall retail sales index was up 2.6 per cent from the same period last year and higher 1.6 per cent compared with March. The total retail sales value in April was estimated at S$3.5 billion, higher than the S$3.4 billion in the same month last year.
    Last edited by Oceanklassik; 13-06-17, 01:57 PM.

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  • WatchRUs
    My 2cents. No point worrying about making $ or losing $ when buying a watch. Buy one that you like. What's the point of buying a watch that you don't really like that much just because it depreciates less that another piece that you really adore? IMHO it is really silly buying & worrying about how much one might lose when (or "IF") selling

    Just buy & enjoy the piece you like.

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  • Courage
    I watched a Youtube video from Watchuwant, in which Josh recommended watch buyers to look at the current exit price of watch they are buying. Deduct this exit price from the purchase price to derive the "losses" buyers can "stomach" from buying this watch and then to live with it.

    For instance, if a Rolex costs $10,000 after discount. The current price people are willing to buy in the 2nd hand market is $8,000 on average. Hence, $10,000 less $8,000 (=$2,000) is the amount you lose by buying this Rolex.

    Josh decides to purchase his watches based on weighing the "loss" amount instead of the $10,000 cost $10,000. Anyone also buys in this manner too?

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  • Oceanklassik
    Originally posted by ed44 View Post
    But sometime, just sometime, when you know you gonna hold on to the watch for a very long time etc, the feeling when inside AD shop, looking and buying the watch is damn good!
    Seriously, whenever I make a watch purchase, I would often (if not always) tell myself to "hold the watch for a very long time". Whether it happens or not, is another story. And of course, the feeling when you have the money and loitering inside a watch shop (AD or otherwise), would definitely be good.

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