Panerai Price Dropping!

[Fred_Tan]

Whatever, u r always right....

Sir Fred. I stated clearly in my post. Its my opinions, I am a buyer, and mainly Singapore. Hence, I feel i just want to clarify matters and not make an enemy without even understanding why.



I only mentioned 312 because that was the only model I was tracking when it became available at over 10k, till now 'stabalised' at 9k. Let's look at it from a buyer point of view, which is what my post was about. I have no idea how much traders can sell abroad, how much then is considered stabalise. Hence, as a layman and wanting to buy, of cos I look at the price. from 10k till 9k, I see le very happy and imm think WOW! price drop!! Note, GMTIIC was also gg for over 10k when it came out in 2007 Y, Z series? now below 8k To me, again I feel major drop. But to a trader, its considered stablied. Both views IMO is corret to a large extent. Hence, I am NOT attacking PAM and def not you.



I got my GMTIIc from a grey dealer cos prices are def better than AD (Hence, I said in my post I am a buyer and couldnt care less who I buy from as long price is right so I really do thank that person that sold it to me.) I got it at 8.6k. I believe if sell it now at 7.6k, I can still be able to sell. Which is also less than 20% loss. My friend has a ss Daytona and if he sells at 11k, which is less than lossing 20% of his buying price, I think might still be able to get a buyer since its less than 6 mths old. Korea is a good place when the curreny dropped like siao a few mnths back

Anyway, ROLEX is not only about GMTIIc and DAYTONA so def a lot of other models might drop more than 20%. But then again, I believe some PAMs might also be the same. Anyway, don dare to claim liaoz lease till called barking at wrong tree with no facts



Dint my post said that ROLEX is a goner if they don change and that PAM has much better control?

oh ya, my original post in which seem to me that its similar leh?? no ah? We both bark at wrong tree together?





btw, is your above statement a fact? Rolex really trying to cheat their customers!! goodness, thanks for this piece of info



Fact again? No idea. But I better not refute.



However, from the above quote, seems like your own opinion and not a fact. There is nothing wrong tho. Hence, whats so wrong with me posting my own opinion that I deserve to be shot down like that with your seemingly unkind words?



Of cos. but if grey dealers don exist, would I have gotten my GMTIIc below 9k, even if there were 30k inside the vault and ADs refuse to lower the price? I dont hate grey dealers. I love them to bits seriously. Saves me lots of money and DA was the one who showed me the way in HWZ to come here in search for them.



Yes, I know. From your post on the SD M Series, Strted at 8k+ in the end repost at 7k+ and sold. I can see that you are trying to sell it fast. Althou that time M series was gg for less thatn 8.5k by other sellers' post.



Don think the above is a FACT. Its only for the well to do. For the general population, they can love a brand, watch to bits, but might never be able to pay for the watch. Hence. pricing does matter to an extent.

of cos, if not being as wealthy as your clients is offending to you, then theres really nothign I can do about that, unless I strike big sweep!



The above is really uncalled for actually. I am merely stating my views as a buyer NOT a trader.

You stated facts as well ass some which are your opinions above right?

ok lets say all the above post by you are facts. Price from 10k stablise to 8.8k is not drop to a buyer's view. Rolex cheats their customer by anyhow jumping the numbers. ALL people now NO LONGER wants to wear somethign that is common. BIG watch is the trend that the world is moving into.

Then ok, I stand corrected and am wrong.

else, this is a forum, why take it so serious? am not attacking you nor the grey dealers. I am only stating what could be the cause, as well as the fact that as a buyer, price seem to have dropped mah. if using stablise is less offending to you, then i use stablise loh. 10k to 8,8k is stablise, can buy le!

Yeah, u r the best, the only here that's correct, I give u that.
Happi?

[wolfeyes1974]

If no $, dun buy...

No one force you to buy from anyone including me.
If you don't like me, dun buy from me.
If you don't like grey traders, dun buy from us.
We could be uttering lies to convince u.

Buy from ADs as they dun ever lie.
ADs are not making $.
Only grey traders are making $.

Dun buy Panerai.
Dun buy AP.
Dun buy PP.
Dump OP, AP & PP and all other brands so that Rolex will be the only brand.

Buy only Rolex from ADs.
Rolex is good for value retention.
All pawnshop take Rolex without any question.
Rolex is high in quality that no one can ever beat. Not even Grand Seiko come close.

Rolex is the best watch in e world.
Any1 that buy any other watch other than Rolex is a moron.

Peng Kwee has high trade in value for all ur Rolexes.

ADs are the best.
They treat every Tom, Dick & Sally that walk into it like King & Queen.
They treat every1 great even when you haggle for half an hour with em over a SGD1,400 TAG for ur gf / mistress.

Dun ever buy from me or any grey trader.

All Spore AD & all AD worldwide will make sure they call every1 of u 1st when they get any 341L, 317L, 292J, 28L, 332L, 26K, 249I, 232I, 217H, 127E & etc when you have only bought a measly SGD1500 U1 from them....

Yeah sure.....bash us grey traders all u want.
Call us names....whatever.

Dun come begging us for ur 292J, 232, 249, 219, 217 & 127s...
When 317 is released in Apr next year, dun even come near us.

Didn't u guys buy from YKC, Kenneth, William & Richard all e "cooked", "inflated" & "overpriced" PAM127 for SGD9k, 12k, 15k, 17k, 21k, 25k....
Didn't u all bought e 217s for 12k, 15k, 17k, 21k from us... and again it's over-prized, right?
Did u buy ur AP ROO EOD for SGD35k from one of us & it's very very expensive & exhorbitant profit.
Did u buy ur AP ROO T3 for SGD51k from one of us not too long ago is it's so expensive.

We sell no one here in Spore any DBS, HSBC, HLB, UOB, GEL & Prudential High Notes or Pinnacle Notes.....We are not your Bernie Madoff.

If our service & price is high, so dun buy from us.
Ban us from SG-ROC.
Ban me.
Ban us all from all forums for that matter.

i agree with Fred.

first of all, i believe thread starter meant to say that prices for more common pammy models are dropping...but appeared to be a broad based statement....i'm sure established brands like AP and PP will also have some models that prices are not dropping or perhaps trend defying.


grey dealers are here whether you like it or not...they merely plug the holes when there's a gap b/t the supply and demand. it's an honest living...opportunistic. i've never seen any of the grey dealers commented that it's worth buying this or that and it'll appreciate or you'll make $$ in years to come. they simply advertise their watches and buyers willingly buy them.

i don't go into any Cortina boutiques because they sux and it's a well known fact in this forum. i've only 2 sales staff i talk to (1 from THG NAC and 1 from Sincere NAC) because i like their services...i wouldn't say they offer me the best price but it's just human chemistry. sometimes, i don't give a hoot about the price difference between ADs and grey dealers...i buy from grey dealers (some of the names mentioned here) for few reasons such as (1) hard to find pieces when i'm looking for it at that time (2) prices are hard to resist and (3) chemistry.

if you find Fred arrogant or candidness offending...dun buy from him (or any of the grey dealers whom you feel likewise for that matter). they're not going to lose an arm or leg over your business nor will you lose countless sleepless nights over a watch because watch is a luxury not a necessity.

[exxondus]

Sir Fred. I stated clearly in my post. Its my opinions, I am a buyer, and mainly Singapore. Hence, I feel i just want to clarify matters and not make an enemy without even understanding why.

You obviously think PAM is just 312 with a few more models as your discussion is only centred on this model. WRONG thought....312 price never gone down.They merely went up to 12k due to speculation when it was released in the mart in Apr-09 and is now stabilized at 8.8k.

I only mentioned 312 because that was the only model I was tracking when it became available at over 10k, till now 'stabalised' at 9k. Let's look at it from a buyer point of view, which is what my post was about. I have no idea how much traders can sell abroad, how much then is considered stabalise. Hence, as a layman and wanting to buy, of cos I look at the price. from 10k till 9k, I see le very happy and imm think WOW! price drop!! Note, GMTIIC was also gg for over 10k when it came out in 2007 Y, Z series? now below 8k To me, again I feel major drop. But to a trader, its considered stablied. Both views IMO is corret to a large extent. Hence, I am NOT attacking PAM and def not you.

Consider that most ppl got their 312 at 9.5k at average, this is still not bad.
I mean, if he/she are forced to sell his 312 now after wearing it for few mths, he only lose SGD1k - 1.5k maybe? That's less than 20% loss, right?

Can we say the same thing for other brand? NOOOO!!!!
Try getting any IWC, Rolex, AP & PP & we'll you losing much more with 40 and even 60% and no1 will even bat an eyelid.

I got my GMTIIc from a grey dealer cos prices are def better than AD (Hence, I said in my post I am a buyer and couldnt care less who I buy from as long price is right so I really do thank that person that sold it to me.) I got it at 8.6k. I believe if sell it now at 7.6k, I can still be able to sell. Which is also less than 20% loss. My friend has a ss Daytona and if he sells at 11k, which is less than lossing 20% of his buying price, I think might still be able to get a buyer since its less than 6 mths old. Korea is a good place when the curreny dropped like siao a few mnths back

Anyway, ROLEX is not only about GMTIIc and DAYTONA so def a lot of other models might drop more than 20%. But then again, I believe some PAMs might also be the same. Anyway, don dare to claim liaoz lease till called barking at wrong tree with no facts

Rolex who thinks they are Swiss govt missed out on factor number 2) Rarity when they got greedy and made 3 million watches per year in 2008.
Who's at fault when they made 10k units of 116520 Black per mth between 2007 and 2009?

Dint my post said that ROLEX is a goner if they don change and that PAM has much better control?

oh ya, my original post in which seem to me that its similar leh?? no ah? We both bark at wrong tree together?

Lets go back to PAM. PAM has a much better control as they only release a small certain number of models. e.g series might only have 2000 pieces worldwide. OF COS this will cause price surge everywhere. HOWEVER, this is possibliy a foresight by the management, something that Rolex, which started much longer, never foresee the potential economy racking abilities of grey dealers. Sad to say, if Rolex don realise this, it is a goner in the longer future.

They even try to cheat by introducing randomized serials number and using the same serials for different models right now now to mask this severe over-production when they started V-series.

btw, is your above statement a fact? Rolex really trying to cheat their customers!! goodness, thanks for this piece of info

Our generation only want something that no1 else is wearing.

Fact again? No idea. But I better not refute.

I dun wan to wear e AP ROO Safari that my boss is wearing even when it's my fav must have item.
I dun wan to wear e Calatrava that my cousin is flashing around.
I dun wan to be seen in a Big Pilot cause my colleague in my office was dumb enough to get 1 last mth when he know's I already have one.

However, from the above quote, seems like your own opinion and not a fact. There is nothing wrong tho. Hence, whats so wrong with me posting my own opinion that I deserve to be shot down like that with your seemingly unkind words?

Other traders like YKC brought in less than 30 piece of Rolex in last 3 years.
All in all, grey traders brought into SG less than 200 pieces of Rolex in last 3 years.
We are not the cause of Rolex failure cause we cannot possibly fight AD who brought in 30,000 pieces of Rolex a year into Spore.

Of cos. but if grey dealers don exist, would I have gotten my GMTIIc below 9k, even if there were 30k inside the vault and ADs refuse to lower the price? I dont hate grey dealers. I love them to bits seriously. Saves me lots of money and DA was the one who showed me the way in HWZ to come here in search for them.

In fact, starting from 2007, you can clearly see that our Rolex pricing is low as we r only keen to minimize losses asap by disposing fast.

Yes, I know. From your post on the SD M Series, Strted at 8k+ in the end repost at 7k+ and sold. I can see that you are trying to sell it fast. Althou that time M series was gg for less thatn 8.5k by other sellers' post.

Anyway, all this talk about price dropping is bull****.
A person who really luv e watch & brand couldn't give a hoot to pricing.
From my regular buyers who seriously play AP, OP & PP dun care bout price....

Don think the above is a FACT. Its only for the well to do. For the general population, they can love a brand, watch to bits, but might never be able to pay for the watch. Hence. pricing does matter to an extent.

of cos, if not being as wealthy as your clients is offending to you, then theres really nothign I can do about that, unless I strike big sweep!

...
You're obviously making false & baseless accusations.
You're barking at e wrong tree.
And, you're off-topic.
Worst, you dun even know Panerai to speak about it.
You only know 312, it seems
...
You obviously ignorant and are only shooting off your mouth with no facts.

The above is really uncalled for actually. I am merely stating my views as a buyer NOT a trader.

You stated facts as well ass some which are your opinions above right?

ok lets say all the above post by you are facts. Price from 10k stablise to 8.8k is not drop to a buyer's view. Rolex cheats their customer by anyhow jumping the numbers. ALL people now NO LONGER wants to wear somethign that is common. BIG watch is the trend that the world is moving into.

Then ok, I stand corrected and am wrong.

else, this is a forum, why take it so serious? am not attacking you nor the grey dealers. I am only stating what could be the cause, as well as the fact that as a buyer, price seem to have dropped mah. if using stablise is less offending to you, then i use stablise loh. 10k to 8,8k is stablise, can buy le!

[SUBMARINER]

I think before 2009, pam 115 was trading above 12k pam 22 was trading about 15k. Some previous thread will show.

It is true that panerai prices are dropping very badly.

Eg: Special Pam 232, 92, 186,252, 318.etc.......
Normal Pam: 0, 5, 111, 112, 118,104,176,91 etc...........
New Pam: 312,268,233,320 etc.........

Overall short and simply. Panerai prices dropping like nobody busy and shops started not to take in unless price very cheap.

It is a fact that most collectors knew.

[fallraen]

alot of grey area. so i think all this (price dropping / increasing) might be hard to justify. i think at the end of the day. i do my research, if price drop thats great. if not just too bad. save up abit more, then buy.

honestly i think if i like it i'll just buy it at what i think is a fair price and if i change my mind, hope to not lose as much. i have yet to buy a watch that made me any 'profits' and that doesn't bother me as i enjoy admiring and wearing the watch.

i won't say i don't get excited when i see "price dropping / price cuts" threads on forums but seriously, i haven't found one that was true. it always had all this grey areas we don't see. pre-owned, overseas sets... like new... old stock. gosh.

[Fred_Tan]

do u think that's e mart price for 115?

I do not check / track any signle brand of watch.

I am only checking and tracking pam 115.
As i am selling 1. it did drop from 12.xk to 11.xk to 10.xk then last know is 9.5k.

So for me panerai 115 price DID drop !

When u say 12k...who is selling then?
May I know what condition?
New?

I dun ever recall 115 actually changed hand above 10k.
Maybe I'm old & my memory is bad.
Forgive me.

NIB PAM22 L-dial has only ever changed hand at 11.8k for a 12.5k asking even when times are good and it was sold by a well known trader to a fren whom I recommended in Sep 2008 when e price was at it's peak.

How can PAM115 that was released much later than PAM22 ever fetch 12k?

I dun think 115 has ever gone above 10k for a BNIB in e mart even in 2007 & 2008.

Maybe I am wrong, pls forgive me.

For the 9.5k deal, I assume u r referring to a 98% condition posted in BigWatch early tis mth?
It is still not sold, huh?
Times are bad, right?
Is this brand new? No? Polished?

[Rolex48]

price of 115 did drop

I do not check / track any signle brand of watch.

I am only checking and tracking pam 115.
As i am selling 1. it did drop from 12.xk to 11.xk to 10.xk then last know is 9.5k.

So for me panerai 115 price DID drop !

[ohlins]

yes gentlemen,

feel free to disagree .... with each other's opinions......

in the end, it's a free market.... for buyers and sellers alike

cheers

[Democritus]

Cool it bro.

Hopefully I was not the one who insinuated or implied anything onto you cos I definitely didn't start commenting with you in mind.

Back to topic.

I maintain my stand that yes..Panerai prices may have dropped for some models but that's the same for all other brands in this economic situation.

[Fred_Tan]

Well, one more thing...

If no $, dun buy...

No one force you to buy from anyone including me.
If you don't like me, dun buy from me.
If you don't like grey traders, dun buy from us.
We could be uttering lies to convince u.

Buy from ADs as they dun ever lie.
ADs are not making $.
Only grey traders are making $.

Dun buy Panerai.
Dun buy AP.
Dun buy PP.
Dump OP, AP & PP and all other brands so that Rolex will be the only brand.

Buy only Rolex from ADs.
Rolex is good for value retention.
All pawnshop take Rolex without any question.
Rolex is high in quality that no one can ever beat. Not even Grand Seiko come close.

Rolex is the best watch in e world.
Any1 that buy any other watch other than Rolex is a moron.

Peng Kwee has high trade in value for all ur Rolexes.

ADs are the best.
They treat every Tom, Dick & Sally that walk into it like King & Queen.
They treat every1 great even when you haggle for half an hour with em over a SGD1,400 TAG for ur gf / mistress.

Dun ever buy from me or any grey trader.

All Spore AD & all AD worldwide will make sure they call every1 of u 1st when they get any 341L, 317L, 292J, 28L, 332L, 26K, 249I, 232I, 217H, 127E & etc when you have only bought a measly SGD1500 U1 from them....

Yeah sure.....bash us grey traders all u want.
Call us names....whatever.

Dun come begging us for ur 292J, 232, 249, 219, 217 & 127s...
When 317 is released in Apr next year, dun even come near us.

Didn't u guys buy from YKC, Kenneth, William & Richard all e "cooked", "inflated" & "overpriced" PAM127 for SGD9k, 12k, 15k, 17k, 21k, 25k....
Didn't u all bought e 217s for 12k, 15k, 17k, 21k from us... and again it's over-prized, right?
Did u buy ur AP ROO EOD for SGD35k from one of us & it's very very expensive & exhorbitant profit.
Did u buy ur AP ROO T3 for SGD51k from one of us not too long ago is it's so expensive.

We sell no one here in Spore any DBS, HSBC, HLB, UOB, GEL & Prudential High Notes or Pinnacle Notes.....We are not your Bernie Madoff.

If our service & price is high, so dun buy from us.
Ban us from SG-ROC.
Ban me.
Ban us all from all forums for that matter.

[Democritus]

Sure

We are pretty close....qoute me to them if you want.
I did nothing wrong to them.
I merely speak out to those of you out there who think we the grey trader always make $ of every deal.
We are always thought off as ppl who will go all out to cheat innocent buyers with our lies.

I don't think Richard, James, Kenneth, Barry, Kim Choy, William & etc will complain about my statements here.

I agree with you that grey traders are like Mee pok sellers....sure need to make money and take some risk too. I also don't think traders cheat others...as least not those that I know.

It's always willing buyer, willing seller.

I also did not say you did them wrong just that you made a stand on their behalf.

I have bought pieces from almost all the dealers you mentioned for a long time so will bring up your good defense of them when I kopi with anyone of them next time.

Cheers

[Democritus]

Fred's articles serve as a good read which is another perspective. This make forum " happening "

Without grey dealers, I don't think I can have a chance to smell and feel a Pam 0, 5, 26, 219, 233, and more 'special' models. Mind you, these are current models that seem so far-fetched at times.

Agree. Like you said, it's another perspective. Some die-hard Rolex fans have oher perspectives too.

For me, I am more of a Pam fan than Rolex. With some PP and AP and IWC.

Don't know if they are losing money or not cos some I won't sell. Others if I sell, its cos I want get something else. So if time are bad, sell low buy low....if market good, then sell high also buy high.

I even sold off all my Pams cos at one time preferred smaller dressy pieces but still creep back to Pam cos some models are just too beautiful not to have and wear.

Verdict...buy what you like and can afford (regardless of brands). Buy a Pam if you like it and enjoy wearing it....not because it holds value. Same for rolex or even any other brands

[Fred_Tan]

I know them too...

I am amazed that all of you are arguing over these.....

Please go back to a few basis...

1. Buying a watch should never be based on what appreciates, holds value and depreciates.....if you are interested in this go buy shares, house etc! Don't spoilt the essence of the hobby.

2. Views from a dealer/trader must always be taken with a hugh pinch of salt cos they have vested interest....similar to my property agent who always tells me its a good time to buy a house! They always have some insider knowledge or some theory.

End of day, buy what you like.

PS: For Fred, before you use the names of some other people (Babka, BigB, TomB, Kennteth and Richard) and claimed that they take certain stand, have you sought their permission? Pls do cos I know some of them pretty well and they will not like it.

We are pretty close....qoute me to them if you want.
I did nothing wrong to them.
I merely speak out to those of you out there who think we the grey trader always make $ of every deal.
We are always thought off as ppl who will go all out to cheat innocent buyers with our lies.

I don't think Richard, James, Kenneth, Barry, Kim Choy, William & etc will complain about my statements here.

[Paneraii]

Fred's articles serve as a good read which is another perspective. This make forum " happening "

Without grey dealers, I don't think I can have a chance to smell and feel a Pam 0, 5, 26, 219, 233, and more 'special' models. Mind you, these are current models that seem so far-fetched at times.

[Democritus]

I am amazed that all of you are arguing over these.....

Please go back to a few basis...

1. Buying a watch should never be based on what appreciates, holds value and depreciates.....if you are interested in this go buy shares, house etc! Don't spoilt the essence of the hobby.

2. Views from a dealer/trader must always be taken with a hugh pinch of salt cos they have vested interest....similar to my property agent who always tells me its a good time to buy a house! They always have some insider knowledge or some theory.

End of day, buy what you like.

PS: For Fred, before you use the names of some other people (Babka, BigB, TomB, Kennteth and Richard) and claimed that they take certain stand, have you sought their permission? Pls do cos I know some of them pretty well and they will not like it.