caution when buying 2 watches on a rotor or 4 watches on 2 rotors

[triton]

i have never been a fan of buying a watch winder where on a single winder it can put 2 watches.

why am i not a fan?

first, the spacing between the 2 watches is a concern especially for BIG case watches such as 40mm and above. however, it is still tricky for 1 big size watch case and 1 small size watch case combination. why? because both watches still need to be on same tpd and same direction



if there are only 2 controls for 3 rotors? is there a chance that all 3 winders can only be set to the same TPD and direction if this is the case, then the 6 watches in this watch winder needs to be of the same combination of TPD and direction. so if have a combination of different brands of watches and function type. this winder may not be suitable.

second, usually when there are 2 watches on a single winder, it means both watches need to be

1. turn in SAME direction
2. SAME turns per day

third, if it is a quad winder if the 2 motors share the same circuit board, this means the TPD and direction is the same. what does this imply? it simply means that the 4 watches need to be wound in the same direction and the same number of turns.

if you have a JLC, Rolex Sports Model, Rolex Daytona, all 3 cannot be put together in the same winder.

it is therefore important to note what watches are to be put inside and know the pros and cons of each winder before buying.

disclaimer : the pictures used are meant for illustration purposes.

[novaol]

I have the same winder as the second picture. I've placed my 40mm IWC with my Seiko side by side, the gap is still okay in my opinion. Here's the picture



And the close-up shot


The reason why I chose this winder is because it's cheaper for 1st, 2nd, it has settings for me to tweak around and 3rd I only have 3 which are automatic. I won't grab the 3 winder but rather I'll take the 4 winder if I have more of such watches around. The shop owner even showed me with two 40mm placed together it is still okay, as long as it does it's job and that is, winds all my watches for me.

Does it really matter if it winds the two watches together in the same direction or not, to me it's okay, the function of a winder is to help you wind the watch if you have more watches which are automatic. Settings allows you to wind clockwise or anti-clockwise position and also whether it is set to 2mins one direction and 2mins the other and rest for 6mins or you can set it for 5mins clockwise and 5mins on anti-clockwise and rest for 9 hours before it starts all over again.

I'm okay if I can afford a single motor for a single watch for 2, 4, 6 or even 8 watches provided I also have the place to put. While mine was put on a shelf on my wardrobe which is small in space. It really depends on what you really need and whether you like to look at as an ecstatic item. Practical, price and space to put for me is my key factor, not looks cos for a short period of time, it may be nice to look at but after a while, you will stash it at a corner and let it do it's job.

I'm not against your view Triton, just sharing my views on winders. You may have your opinion which is good and I really like to share mine too. Two watches on a winder is okay provided you know the size of your watches you have. If you have a 42mm or a 46mm, I will totally agree with you. And frankly before I purchased this winder, I have seen a even smaller gap two watch on a single motor and the price was even higher then mine. So if you are keen to get this, make sure you know your watch size first, quantity of watches you have before looking the right winders for your watches.

[triton]

two watches on the same winder is ok with gap in between is ok. however tpd and direction is major concern. if one needs 650 and the other needs 800 how? u cannot set 650 because the one with 800 will not have the desire power reserve. if you set 800, then the 650 will be over wind.

it is not as simple as wind up the watch is good enough.

And the close-up shot

you place 2 watches on the winder. from the picture, one is a seiko kinetic. one is a IWC cousteau edition using calibre 79320. correct me if i am wrong. im not a seiko guru but as far as i understand, a kinetic movement charges the watch up to 6 months. according to orbita website. so placing it on a winder can potentially damage the parts.

i did a check on orbita website. one of the international brands. according to their website. they recommend direction - clockwise and tpd - 800 for the IWC model seen in your picture.click here for reference. they recommend direction - both (clockwise and counter-clockwise) with tpd - 650-950. only 6S uses clockwise then again, they cannot confirm. click here for reference. though orbita is a relatively young company of 13 years of age, i would trust what they say then brands with little history(if any)

technically, i would go for the lower TPD to prevent over-winding. in an event of over-winding, the slipping clutch will be used. im not a keen user to set higher TPD as it will cause the slipping clutch to be used constantly, being a mechanical part, this could mean wearing out of parts faster.

the main concern the direction of winding. the last thing you want to do is using the wrong direction for your watch. it may or may not damage the parts. but with a watch like IWC, a servicing would easily set one back with at least ~1k

did seller place 2 44mm watches together?

the purpose of this thread is to raise concern. as mentioned it is not to say the winder is good or not. it is knowing the pitfalls and avoiding them.

buying a winder is also about planning for future as well.

[VintageRolex]

Here is my 2 cents...

I have 2 of this winders (4+6), and have them for more than 2 years. Never had given me a problem and i must say it is value for money.

The watches that i have placed on one winder are: 2 vintage Seiko divers, Rolex 1680, 5513 (a mix b/w 44mm to 36mm)
The other winder: my modern chrono (APROO, IWC, Breitling) (a mix b/w 42mm to 46mm)

The trick to placing 2 larger watches together is to place the crown away from each other to prevent them from knocking each other.

One advice to buyer is to bring your watch along to estimate the spacing.
If your watch is too big, then get the 1 watch 1 rotor style.


It is easy to organise the same type of watches to be placed on the same rotor as long as you know the minimum TPD requirement of the movement.

Plan ahead as Triton's advice.

[TanWL]

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For me I prefer individual winder as I realise that certain movement need to set in clockwise direction only and certain movement unidirectional.

[triton]

do not buy because it is cheaper. if you bought it cheap and your watch movement is damaged, i think your cost of servicing will be higher.

when you say tweak? do you mean setting the direction and TPD? my eilux winder can do that as well. but i know it wont damage the movement. that is applicable to the other models. the newer models does TPD 900 according to their site.

as for the tpd for this winder, let our forum watch winder guru - ten10 advise you accordingly.

The reason why I chose this winder is because it's cheaper for 1st, 2nd, it has settings for me to tweak around as long as it does it's job and that is, winds all my watches for me.

Does it really matter if it winds the two watches together in the same direction or not, to me it's okay, the function of a winder is to help you wind the watch if you have more watches which are automatic. Settings allows you to wind clockwise or anti-clockwise position and also whether it is set to 2mins one direction and 2mins the other and rest for 6mins or you can set it for 5mins clockwise and 5mins on anti-clockwise and rest for 9 hours before it starts all over again.

[VintageRolex]

I would highly recommend you to speak to your relevant Brand's service centre to get the minimum TPD and clockwise/anticlockwise rotation requirement.

You will be surprised to find that what was recommended by seller's may be different from what is advised by the service centre.

[novaol]

I would rotate the use of my watches as I don't just wear one type. So to me, the TPD serves only a yard stick for me to set the number of CW and CCW rotation. Now basically you are correct to say that certain watch should not exceed 650 and 800 TPDs respectively, but to me I would set it less just nice and not over wind the watch, so that when I do pick the particular watch to wear on that day, it will help serve the days needs and not dead at some point.

My Seiko kinetic will only be in the winder for just one day if I don't wear it for 2 weeks as I occasionally press the status to check if the battery is charged in full, if it does, I won't left it in the winder but rather under the trays given. You are right about my IWC it is a calibre 79320 and it does needs 800 TPD to completely charged. Like I mentioned before, just let the winder wind just enough for the watch to continue operating and not the make it turn all the time and over-wind it and that I've use the setting 4 which winds 2mins CW followed by 2mins CCW and rest for 6 mins before it kicks again.

The seller did place two 42mm as I don't recall the size is 44mm, and the watch still able to have gaps still. And you are right the awareness here is to set the winder setting to the minimal TPD so that you can wear it and not-over wind the watch. But you can't say to be caution on 2 watches on a rotor or 4 on a 2 rotor. Your statement should state that when getting a winder, do remember to set your options on the winder to the minimal settings to prevent over-winding.

Whether a person who bought a winder, cheap or expensive, long or small size, as long as it serves the basic rules of not having to wind on just one direction with either CW or CCW only but bi-directional. On top of this, you can state that the winder should allow settings to wind the minimal TPDs for the watch to stay moving.

[lead]

Anyone has any comment on Titan watch winders found on this website? Thanks

[novaol]

Triton, I bought this winder is not because it is cheap but rather the after sales support. I had the other model which lasted me 4 years which fails me because of a rotor issue. And because I have read and studied the number of brands floating around and that I was pleased with the current brand, I went ahead to get another for replacement. The original winder I bought is from HK AD for Rolex and the shop recommends this at that time. Winder to me is a simple mechanism so too expensive is more on aesthetic look and packaging while the most important is the rotor and it's lifespan. It gives me an option to change if it fails after 2 years or more so that I have an excuse to change or to buy kekeke

But I will try eilux winders next when this fails me and by then who knows I may have more Rolex collections and in need to expand. The key thing I will remember is to set the winder to a minimal winding settings..ha ha

[novaol]

Like I mentioned, there is no specific TPDs to be use on a watch except the original watch makers. So winder sellers only sells and estimate the settings for you. But it will be on your part to set it lower so that the watch is being wind and the seconds moves. There are a lot of literatures around to read but at the end of the day, it's what we share here due to our experiences could help you thru and serves as a good reference point for your decision making.

I would highly recommend you to speak to your relevant Brand's service centre to get the minimum TPD and clockwise/anticlockwise rotation requirement.

You will be surprised to find that what was recommended by seller's may be different from what is advised by the service centre.

[ten10]

Sorry if my post is dry cause there’s a lot about winders from my perspective. And a winder is used out of convenience and to maintain the state of wind in any automatic watch.

Regarding Bro Tritons concern about the spacing between two watches, Bro VintageRolex has the right solution of placing his watches with the crowns on opposite sides so that they won’t elbow each other. But what I’m more concern is the weight of the two watches. I’ll explain later.

Some collectors are specific in their winding requirements, others are not. Some just generalize the TPD requirements while others prefer the exact TPD or nearest to it. But IMHO, the serious collectors I’ve known prefer the latter. This group of people are so technical that they want single watches with both Directional and TPD Selection on their individual winding pods.

To have a winder with two watches on a single pod is economy of scale. It’s cheaper to build a winder with just one motor and one controller rather than two individual motors and two independent controllers. It’s a matter of choice, how much ‘real-estate’ available in their room and how well you want to take care of your timepieces.

Individual winding pods ensure watches get individual care. It’s also caring for the motor inside.

When we talk about watch winder motors, it usually involves 4 main factors. They are Torque, Angular Velocity, Power and Winding Sequence.


Torque
Torque is the force that acts in a rotational manner. It is described as N-m (Newton-meter). The higher the torque, the more power it delivers to turn a heavy object in a circular manner. However, when we have a high torque motor, it consumes more current and when/if we use batteries to power it; the batteries will lose its energy faster. On the other hand, torque increases inversely to speed. This means that if a motor running at 6V 10rpm is powered by a 4V power supply, it’ll be significantly noticed that the speed will be slow but torque increases.

So some manufacturers choose this method to use a cheap carbon-brush motor to turn two watches on a turn-table. This will give the extra boost (power) to turn two ‘heavy’ watches.

On the flip side, this extra power increases current going through the H-Bridge circuit on the control board and this will be degenerating over time. It is evident if you feel the transistors on board with your fingers (they commonly use 8055 & 8050) they are hot. Concurrently, inside the motor, the carbon brushes will ‘spark’ more thus eroding its brushes faster.

To counter this entire problem, higher-end watch winder manufacturers choose BLDC (Brushless DC) gear-motors, which are more expensive as compared to those with brushes. Check out Portescap Motors.


Angular Velocity
Another name to this is simply ‘Speed’. As we all know, motors convert electrical energy to mechanical energy or rotational energy. This means when you apply a certain voltage, the DC motor will turn the shaft in a certain direction and at a certain angular velocity or rotational speed. The unit is described as RPM or Revolutions per Minute (Rotations per Minute).

In a watch winder, the RPM of a motor with the winding sequence will determine the resulting TPD in a certain calculations that I have presented in my DIY Section. This TPD will correspond to the requirements of your timepiece. Each timepiece having its own TPD requirements.

When manufacturers choose motors, they have to consider the speed in one of their specifications as this is directly related to the winding sequence they have programmed in the MCU (Micro-Controller Unit).

As an example,
Let’s say their winding sequence (don’t be confuse with winding cycles) is CW 5 minutes, CCW 5 minutes and Pause 20 minutes.

If they select a motor with 10rpm (10 revolutions per minute), then…

For the CW rotation, in 5 minutes it will produces 50 turns; and in a day it will produce 2400 turns per day. Same goes for the CCW direction.

Calculation:-
5minutes x 10rpm = 50 turns
In one day, this sequence (5min CW + 5min CCW + 20min Stop = 30min) will be repeated 1440 divide by 30min = 48times.
50 turns x 48 repetitions = 2400TPD

However if the manufacturer selects a motor with 3rpm, then…
5minutes x 3rpm = 15 turns
In one day, this sequence (5min CW + 5min CCW + 20min Stop = 30min) will be repeated 1440 divide by 30min = 48times.
15 turns x 48 repetitions = 720TPD

Since there are so many watches today, certain manufacturers turn to a ‘brute-force’ high TPD method. It’s their solution as one-size-fits-all to wind all the watches.


Torque is inversely proportionate to Speed


Power
Here, I’m referring to the current consumption of a watch winder. This is critical when a manufacturer builds a battery powered watch winder unit, small enough for a safe.

To handle a rotating pod with two watches, the motor uses more energy (more current consume). If the two watches are of unequal weight, the pod in the first instance uses more current in the ‘uphill climb’. In the ‘downhill’ motion, or the second instance, the unbalance weight now is exerting against the shaft and in turn exerts an axial force to the gears. This force will eventually wear out the nylon gears (most commonly used).

So in the event where the user plugs in AC Power, the ‘second part’ will be present, that is, the gears will wear out. So in both cases we get hit.

Coming back to the first instance, since more power is consume, ‘sparking’ on the brushes will occur more frequently thus eroding the brushes. If the winding sequence requires frequent turning, that too will require even more sparking. And, also, if more power is consume the motor driver (H-Bridge) passes more current and eventually break down.

If you have a food processor at home and place a granite stone inside, the blades will get stuck. At this moment, feel the motor inside. It’ll get warmer by the minute. This means more current is passing through. And up to a certain point your circuit-breaker will trip. If there’s no circuit-breaker, your motor will burn out.


Winding Sequence
Each manufacturer has it own winding sequence and this sequence relates to all the above factors. A winder's TPD can be derived from this sequence + the motor's RPM. A good winder should provide the appropriate turn-requirements for a timepiece.


In designing and selecting (engineer’s term = spec-in) parts and programming for winders, a lot of factors have to be considered in order to have a solid well-engineered watch winder. And I haven’t even touched on the electrical/mechanical noise, its tilt angle and controller boards yet.

At the end of the day, it’s entirely up to the consumer to buy and drive a Cherry or a Chevy, after knowing and weighing all the factors. To someone, its gets from point A to point B; but to someone else, they want quality, safety and a comfy ride on top of getting to places.

In my opinion, single winding pods are better.

[Souled]

Hi bros,

I have been following this thread with great interest. The interest mainly stems from my understanding that a high-end watch winder maker such as buben zorweg does not offer single winding pods in most of their models. In fact I was surprised to know that they typically provided a four winders on one rotor arrangement in their mainstream models such as the phantom and evolution series. Further checks with the folks at timeless gallery did not offer me any further respite on the debate between single vs combined winding scenarios; they merely brushed off the lack of individual customized winding by saying that it is fine to basically follow the highest TPD requirement in a group of four watches. This has undoubtedly created greater dissonance for me, considering the high price point for B&Z winders. Any thoughts/comments bros?

[triton]

i was just waiting for someone to point this out. for a brand who does not make individually controlled pod, i find it strange.
personally i rather use orbita. why? because their triple winder has each individually controlled pod.

Hi bros,

I have been following this thread with great interest. The interest mainly stems from my understanding that a high-end watch winder maker such as buben zorweg does not offer single winding pods in most of their models. In fact I was surprised to know that they typically provided a four winders on one rotor arrangement in their mainstream models such as the phantom and evolution series. Further checks with the folks at timeless gallery did not offer me any further respite on the debate between single vs combined winding scenarios; they merely brushed off the lack of individual customized winding by saying that it is fine to basically follow the highest TPD requirement in a group of four watches. This has undoubtedly created greater dissonance for me, considering the high price point for B&Z winders. Any thoughts/comments bros?

[ten10]

Hi bros,

I have been following this thread with great interest. The interest mainly stems from my understanding that a high-end watch winder maker such as buben zorweg does not offer single winding pods in most of their models. In fact I was surprised to know that they typically provided a four winders on one rotor arrangement in their mainstream models such as the phantom and evolution series. Further checks with the folks at timeless gallery did not offer me any further respite on the debate between single vs combined winding scenarios; they merely brushed off the lack of individual customized winding by saying that it is fine to basically follow the highest TPD requirement in a group of four watches. This has undoubtedly created greater dissonance for me, considering the high price point for B&Z winders. Any thoughts/comments bros?

Bro, you are right by saying 'winding pod' is actually the winding cup that holds a single watch.

B&Z deploys a Portescap coreless motor in the center that turns four gears. These four gears turn four winding pods (with four watches). IMO, B&Z sells aesthetics. They are the 'Rolls Royce' of the winder industry. Their controllers are in groups of fours, meaning one controller drives four pods. On the other hand, Underwood, Orbita, Eilux, Swiss Kubik & Scatola believes in a one-to-one direct-drive system. Abest (Taiwan Mfr) echoes this method and develops (OEM) winders under the name of S1, Birkenstoc, Brookstone, Kadloo, Mitch & Marc, and many more. Rapport also uses a one-to-one but deploys a belt-drive system unlike the rest.

So this thread basically has two components as discussion.

1) Is it better to have single watch to a single pod? OR two watches to a single pod?
2) Should a single controller drive an independent pod or multiple pods?

I've noticed that in most 'branded' winders they have single watch to a single pod but varies on the second point above.

I believe Bro VintageRolex has in-depth knowledge about winders too but maybe shy to share. Let's have various opinions from more members here owning watch winders.

For the sake of discussion, Bros & Sis, please share your unbiased experience with all members here. No need to mention any brand names lah!


Incidently Bro Souled, was Francis there when you pop down to Timeless Gallery?